We are already POA for her and have been added to her accounts but she still has access. When she goes out with her caregiver she spends hundreds of dollars on stuff she doesn’t need. She buys televisions, electronics, furniture, clothing - you name it and it is usually a duplicate of something she already has. For example, she bought a blood pressure monitor even though she already has several. She has no real capacity to manage her finances as she cannot even perform basic math anymore. Mom already lost her house to foreclosure because she wasn’t paying bills which is how we convinced her to give us POA.
She is not a wealthy lady and when she does this she draws her account down to the extent that we are worried we won’t be able to pay for the caregiver each month. There is no telling what unpredicted expenses will hit the account. We told the caregiver to keep an eyes on this and save receipts. She tries to reign mom in but in the end she has doesn’t have the final say.
We established a second account for mom to use as an allowance. More accurately, we moved the bulk of her income to a secondary account so she could not spend all her money in her main account. This worked for a while but she started getting insistent about having access to the other account, too. She claimed we were stealing her money and she called the police who then called a social worker. They told us since she has capacity (as determined by a doctor) we have to give her access to the account so we did.
Now she needs more care and we are not sure we can pay for that if she keeps engaging in retail therapy. Sometimes we worry we can cover what she has already committed to. What options do we have? Do we just let her continue on until the bills pile up again and we have to let the caregiver go? We feel really helpless. We thought having POA would solve this problem but didn’t realize that having POA doesn’t mean we can cut off her access.
I followed mom's attorney's advice and stepped in where necessary and once I began helping I didn't stop... he said it isn't a faucet that turns off and on but a steady stream continually moving forward as needed. I didn't let bills pile up...I used her inability to remember to pay them as a reason to step in because my mom has dementia, I knew when I began this journey that memory care may be the only care option and that is pricey! I really studied and asked tons of questions of all the people who were in positions to know answers and it has served me well. I had to allow her to fumble a few times before stepping in and I didn't do it in a demeaning type way -- although she would likely beg to differ. She now has a dementia diagnosis and is on hospice with some medical issues aside from cognitive decline. Staying at home with her has been a blessing.
You stay at home with her?
How did you manage to balance (while helping your mom all these years), your work, husband, kids, your finances, your own home?
Did your mom pay you to help?
she runs out if long term care insurance this fall and will be private pay to the tune of $8,250 a month. Reality may hit then
Now I want to address a few other things that jumped out in your further info. The first is that you signed the caregiver contract as a guarantor rather than as her POA. Always sign as POA because you are right you have made yourself the fall back if she can’t or doesn’t pay. If that was a requirement for some reason find out why and if not maybe you can sign a new contract as POA, especially if the hours are needing to be increased this might be a good opportunity. Also as I’ve been going down this road with my mother too I can tell you that the inability to understand numbers is common and certainly a sign, it will get worse and you should make sure you have DPOA or springing POA now while you still can. It doesn’t have to be presented to Mom as being all about money as suspicion is also a sign and symptom that can get worse, you can focus on the need to make medical decisions as well and what happens if she isn’t able to appoint you anymore and you don’t have the authority to take care of her. POA technically only gives you that authority while she is able to direct you not if she isn’t able to agree. You may live in a state that automatically makes it a DPOA unless specified otherwise and the attorney that took care of that for you saw the writing on the wall and you don’t have to worry about it but if there isn’t a method for you to make decisions for her in the event she is unable you need to get that while someone deems her capable. You care about your mom and want to do everything you can for her so don’t resign as POA, it doesn’t require you to act or be responsible in any way it simply allows it and my understanding is a DPOA doesn’t either it simply allows it if she is unable to make decisions or direct you to act. The only requirement is that you act in her best interest which is what you want to do. Don’t give up your POA sure it up and try including your mother in the needed decisions in a way that makes her see it your way and agree you should do whatever it is. Give her the control to say that’s a good idea rather than feeling like she is loosing the control. She probably is loosing the control and knows it which I know with my mom makes her dig in about having control. Unfortunately that often means letting her try, say using her phone and fail which crushes her and is so hard to watch but while sometimes we can gently talk her through why she needs help when she is in that control mode there often isn’t much more we can do. Safety is the line
If it comes down to it you may need to file for guardianship.
My daddy was easy going I just took over but it sounds like your mom is not that easy going.
If you haven't already consulted one, search for an elder care attorney... some offer first consult appointment at no charge. If you do this communicate privately you are trying to protect her from herself and why. Hopefully the attorney could be prepared to offer solutions in a way that she understands everything suggested is to protect her from strangers and the risks of not doing certain steps... which is all true. An irrevocable trust may be in order and hopefully it is not too late, but maybe not if you still have professionals saying she can make decisions.
So many elderly have been scammed or financially abused by strangers. One example is if she is convinced to marry and then the husband gain full control. Six months after my mother died, my father remarried. Neither had much at all but he had a mobile home and nice lot that was paid for. She decided they should sell his home and move closer to her children. The home was already in a trust before my mother died, with my sister in charge, so he was able to say no. My father finally separated from her, but still felt responsible so he allowed her to stay in the home. When my sister took my father back to check on her and get a few more things the wife called the sheriff and he told her that my father and sister were legal to be on the property. It was so sad because my father never believed in divorce but was forced into one for his sanity and health. She had presented herself to have the same Christian values my father did. While we could not prevent the marriage, financial planning before my mother died helped him preserve some of his financial security after he remarried. The short two years they were married could probably provide enough story lines to keep Jerry Springer on the air forever.
She has seen several neurologists, a neuropsychologist, and other doctors in addition to her primary care doctor. She has had a complete health assessment and a neuropsychological evaluation. The diagnosis is that she has moderate cognitive impairment most likely as a result of Alzheimer’s. The doctors and social workers agree that she needs help with some activities for daily living such as managing her medications but that she can live on her own as long as she has a caregiver, which she does. They know I have POA over her finances and agree that is a good thing given mom can no longer do math. However, they also think that she has capacity to be able to enter into legally binding agreements such as the POA, advanced directives, and so on. Well, not exactly. Their opinion on this is split. Her neurologist says she does not have capacity. The neuropsychologist she interviewed with does. Her previous PCP does. Her new PCP (she switched) said she would need to consider it more. So I have two letters that say she has capacity but two doctors also refused to vouch for that.
I spoke to an attorney about this and he said that a person would have to be pretty far gone to not be able to specify who they wanted as their POA for example and so we would not likely be able to obtain a conservatorship or guardianship. He said the letters that say she has capacity are useful because it means we can obtain more control merely by mom’s consent without having to go the court. So I am not sure if having those is working for me or against me.
Meanwhile, mom figured out that not all of her money was in the one account she had a debit card for and demanded the debit card for the other account. I was forced to give it to her by adult protective services who is now investigating me as a result of her complaint to the police. I am confident they will find no wrongdoing on my part so I am not too worried about that.
My concern is, as was stated before, that now that she has access to all the money she will spend her account down to zero and there won’t be any money to pay for her caregiver which she needs to have in order to live on her own. I also realized after looking at the paperwork that I signed up to be a guarantor for the caregiver so I think that means if she racks up a big debt I am on the hook for that.
Meanwhile, I still have POA because she hasn’t thought to (or doesn’t want to) revoke that. I am not sure she is capable given that it has to be in writing and notarized. She would need some help with that.
As of now there is still enough money in her accounts but it is just a matter of time until she spends more than she should. She has been going out to lunch and spending $50-100 each time. I don’t think she even realizes the cost. The caregiver said it is because mom wants to get extra helpings of food “for dinner and the next day” and of course she offers to pay for the caregiver’s meal, too. The caregiver gives me the receipts and I am satisfied nothing untoward is happening except that mom just doesn’t consider the cost at all. She has a pretty big pension and so she is used to being able to buy/do what she wants within reason but that just can’t happen with this big caregiver expense she has now.
It sounds like my best option is to give up the POA, let her do her own thing, fail at it, and then let the state get involved again to place her. I was hoping I could avoid all of that by managing her money for her.
I see, some doctors says your mom is competent, others don’t; and some say competent only in some areas of life.
I still think you would lose if you file for C or G, since the doctors aren’t unanimous about financially incompetent.
It’s not enough to be financially irresponsible, reckless.
Moreover, maybe your mom’s right! Why not enjoy restaurant food, spend your money, enjoy it, and if you can’t pay for caregivers later, so be it. There’ll be consequences, but so be it. You enjoyed your money.
I do have problems with your caregiver, accepting costly meals. On the other hand, it’s not much fun to eat alone in a restaurant, so your mom enjoys the caregiver’s company while eating.
Conclusion:
If I felt the caregiver is taking advantage, for example if she accepts shopping gifts (like TV, etc.), I would change caregivers.
I’d also get a card with a limit. Try to convince your mom it’s safer, in case the card gets stolen.
I want to clarify some things about C (conservatorship) and G (guardianship).
“A conservatorship is a grant of power over an incapacitated individual.”
This is the legal definition. It’s not my definition.
C is only for financial matters.
G is full control (medical decisions, finances, everything).
For C:
The person (conservatee) (OP’s mother) MUST be mentally incompetent/incapacitated: the two terms are the same, although the latter (incapacitated) generally is used when it’s transitory.
By the way, if you have G, you don’t need C, because G gives you full power over the person.
C is not about needs.
G is not about physical.
G is FULL CONTROL over everything.
C is only control over finances.
It’s possible one doesn’t fully understand why the judges in this or that case allowed for example C. It’s possible one believes one got C because the person was financially irresponsible. This is incorrect. The reason is always the same: the person was judged mentally incompetent/incapable.
OP, it’s very costly to try to get C or G. You will lose. Why? Because your mother was recently diagnosed mentally competent: social worker, doctors are already involved in your mother’s situation.
Your mom was diagnosed mentally competent (same thing as mentally capable). It means she’s allowed to make her own decisions, financially, medically, all of it.
A judge will only allow C or G, if the person is mentally incompetent/incapable. This is the law.
POA and G and C aren’t the same thing.
Some POAs are in effect, even though the person is still mentally competent. That’s the type of POA I have: immediate effect upon signing. If my mom disagrees with my decision as POA, since she’s mentally competent she has the final word.
If the person is mentally incompetent, POA has the final word, and there’s no need for G, BUT keep in mind the ultimate/highest “power” is G.
Example: The State suddenly wants G. You have POA. You try to win against the State to get G. In your case, you lost. The State now has G (highest control) and your POA has been trumped. Your POA is now invalid.
Another example: You have POA (both financial and medical). But the State tries to get C over the person. In your case, you lost. The State now has power to decide finances, you don’t. But you can make other decisions as POA (like medical decisions). This doesn’t normally happen (that the State only goes after C), because the State will normally go for G (FULL CONTROL).
Another example: a celebrity has a lot of money. The celebrity is temporarily mentally incompetent/incapacitated (alcohol, drugs). A family member tries to get C, wins.
We just went through this with MIL and my Mother. Each state is not only different, but has different terminology and how they apply it. There is no federal definition on how CS/GS/POA is applied.
This is my MIL's resident state definition. " A Conservator is a person appointed by the Court to manage the finances and assets of a loved one who is no longer able to administer his or her property." The definition no longer has ANYTHING to do with mental or physical capacities or competencies. Only whether or not the person can administer his/her financial affairs. Incapacity/incompetent is not the only reason one cannot administer their affairs. This is only one of many reasons.
GS only gives strictly physical custody in at least one state because MIL's resident state passed a Death with Dignity/Physican Assisted Suicide Law. To make that work, ALL people are given 100% physical autonomy whether or not they have mental capacity to decide what is safe and not safe. To legally physically transport MIL without her express permission, DH had to obtain GS otherwise MIL had the legal right to stay/sit/stand/elopement/drive (yes, drive) at any time. To control her monthly finances, he already had DPOA. The judge was 100% clear that the GS absolutely did not cover any assets -- including a home or car or any pension. Husband/our attorney was required to file an additional set of papers to gain control of any assets. Different papers, different fee, different filing, different judgement and it would have doubled the expenses for gaining control of both her physically and her assets. Hence the reasoning behind the judge asking current docket questions. This is now standard practice in her state.
As another example of what are state differences:
"What is the difference between guardianship and conservatorship in Louisiana?
It says “guardianship” represents the authority granted by a court to take over the physical day-to-day affairs of another person. When it comes to authority over only the ward's finances, the relationship should then be known as a conservatorship."
and
New York is even different again. It is:
"A guardian is a court-appointed fiduciary who is responsible for ensuring that the needs of a child or incapacitated adult are met. In New York, adults who can no longer manage their personal or financial affairs due to mental or physical impairment are considered legally incapacitated. Article 81 of New York’s Mental Hygiene Law provides courts with the authority to appoint guardians to assist such individuals...".
And a third - Texas:
"Is There a Difference Between Conservators & Guardians?
The definition of conservators and guardians differs state by state, which can make things confusing for individuals involved in guardianship and conservatorship cases.
In Texas, guardianship cases occur in a county court; the probate court. In contrast, conservatorship cases happen in district courts, with the help of a family law judge."
I stick with disagreeing. Since there is no indication of where the person resides, my advice stays the same as my first post. OP can try for CS under their own states laws and see if they can take control of the finances without doctor involvement.
Anyone who buys already what she has tons of and can no longer can do simple math has a cognitive problem. Take her to a Neurologist. He can give her a more in depth test.
Teach the caregiver to become faint and need to go home immediately before any large purchases are made. Tell the sales person, you all will be back.
Inventory the home to determine if everything purchased is in fact in your Mom's home, in her possession.
Make a report to APS regarding a senior unable to self-care and manage her money to pay her bills. Report that she is being exploited to buy large ticket items. Let APS make their recommendations.
Mom can voluntarily cooperate with a budget. Otherwise, she requires more help than you can personally provide.
1) You can quit.
2) The caregiver can quit.
3) Then APS can show up.
Example:
Mom, I see you bought a new T.V.
Do you want us to come over and hook it up?
Give you access to the home, in detail.
Some caregivers have gone so far as to return items to the store.
What are they going to do, ask where it is after they have forgotten
that they purchased it?
Sorry this is so hard, but imo you need to outsmart Mom, while still protecting her dignity, safety, and rights. If this is impossible, bring in professional help.
Never continue to care for someone who has called the police on you.
You are, and will be, damned if you do, or damned if you don't.
OR,
With your help, SHE can sign up online to control her accounts if the POA is springing. 😉
OR,
Another much more expensive option is to get a financial conservatorship much like Brittany Spears was under. Conservatorship is a long and expensive legal process and it requires a lot more involvement in time, effort and responsibilities on your part. However, as it is judge signed, you would have FULL control of whatever the judge orders.
OR,
Resign, walk away and let her spend herself into oblivion and Medicaid eligible. Then later you're stuck with all the extra stuff bought. 😁
Give her a set amount every week spending money and that's it. The rest has to go towards her bills and needs.
Only with her permission at this time can you act as financial POA over her accounts. When my brother was diagnosed with probable early Lewy's dementia he ASKED me to take over his bills, his accounts, as POA and as Trustee of his Trust. We set this up together in his attorney's office. He had a small spending account. I gave him a monthly accounting and kept meticulous records for him, and as his trustee/poa we set up all the banking accounts with a bank officer. WITH HIS AGREEMENT.
As Mom is not yet diagnosed as incompetent in her own decision making by two doctors I am afraid you are sunk. I would resign my POA and let her have at it. Since she already lost the bulk of the estate there's no sense fretting what she has left and what she wants to do with it. I would make it clear to her she is on her own now with her finances, and in future is as well.