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If your husband wants to cut the connection, he should be allowed to do so. There is almost nothing worse than being forced to help someone when you don't want to do it and the person who is being helped, does not appreciate the gesture.

MIL thinks daughter can just step into your husband's shoes. Allow MIL and daughter to do it. Please do not spend any more on your MIL. If worse comes to worse, she should sell the house to pay for her medical necessities. You should not be paying for her medical needs or anything to do with the house.

Just be there to support your husband no matter what the decision. He needs your support.
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My MIL cut ALL three of her kids out of her Will. She had her Will rewritten four times in the past four years and finally crossed them all out to give it all to her “friend” neighbor who she has been paying to do all her “wishes.” The neighbor who was made the POA two years ago has worked her way in ! Our attorney says she is failing at her fiduciary duty and taking advantage of her at age 94. Apparently this is a common thing as elders can be swayed easily to believe untruths as their personal reality. It’s been awful and heartbreaking considering her kids did so much for her since the death of her hubby over 20 years ago. Some time has passed and we have accepted her rejections. But when someone asks about her we say, “she’s dead to us” Keep your chin up and know you did what you could, but it’s time to stop and live your own life. Hers is over.
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Lovemydoggies May 2023
Being disinherited by one or both parents is abandonment. The disinherited person no longer has ethical reasons to continue in the abusive, toxic relationship. When my parents decided to disinherit me, I asked them if they had considered the consequences? They pulled the bible quote of honoring parents and that I should respect and honor their decisions no matter what. That was the last time I saw my dad until two hours before he passed away. Best decision I ever made.

Accept the MIL's very direct and unambiguous scorching of your husband. Walk away and never look back.
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MightGetSmart: Prayers sent.
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You state "MIL says she's signed the will and she can't undo it. She doesn't know where it is or what else she's signed."

So, who is the POA? The sister? What about HIPPA? If his name is on that form, the sister cannot keep medical information from him. And unless your husband actually viewed the will, it is all hearsay. If the mom has any kind of medical issue, anything she has will be gone in no time. Even if she sold her reverse mortgage home, where would she live?

I took care of my dad and stepmom for 3 1/2 years until their passing and all along I always said I didn't care if I received a dime, as long as I didn't receive a bill.

I think you're husband should take what his mom says with a grain of salt.
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Countrymouse May 2023
"...as long as I didn't receive a bill." :😂

Wouldn't that just put a lid on it!!!
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In my world I would ignore all this money discussion and do what feels right to me. Money may or may not be there when this woman dies. When my mom started this journey she had a wonderful inheritance for my brother and I. Her life goal. Her dementia needs has sucked her dry. At the end we will need to help her financially. I give time from my heart not for what I may get later. If he is tired of doing for his mom he can tell her to hire the household help done. Or get the sister to help her. All the kids owe her is to be sure she is in a safe place. If she fails to keep herself safe call social services for the elderly. They will move her. Good Luck
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MightGetSmarter May 2023
This is really about a mother/daughter trauma-bonded relationship that has no room for my hubby except what he can give to them. This is not about money.
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You cannot control what the mom does or what the sister does. If your husband chooses to help his mom, it can't be with strings attached. Either you give freely or you don't. If he feels like he is being taken advantage of, he can simply say no to her requests. I can certainly see why he would be resentful of the situation, but he is in control of himself and he can pick and choose what he has the time and money to do for her.
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My parents had 2 absolutes we were brought us up with:

1. Never think about inherting money (my father always told us there would be nothing left--they were going to spend it all).

2. Your parents shouldn't cost you money (both sets of grandparents were immigrants and DID cost my parents money. Our parents were bound and determined not to let that happen).

Your mother in law should be paying her way. There is dignity in paying your own expenses. Her son should be reimbursed for TVs, plumbing fixtures and the like.

Sister should be paid for her caregiving NOW. Because there won't be anything left to the end.

Your husband should stop trying to buy his mother's love with gifts.
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BurntCaregiver May 2023
@Barb

My father had the same philosophy. He always said that he wasn't leaving us anything but wouldn't leave us any debts either though.

He left nothing but debts. So I got nothing except the honor of cleaning up his messes and being harrassed by creditors and bill collectors day and night for years.
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Love your Mom as you know how.Helping her seems to have been a blessing for you. Bless you for not causing you mother such heartache while you were growning up. Your sister missed out on a lot of joy. Enjoy the time you have with your Mom and release the past behavior of your sister who seems to be helping Mom now... as she is able. Be aware that if your mom is on Medicaid and owns a home; They can come after the sale of the house after she passes, to recoup some of the money Medicaid put out for her care expenses. I read a book lately that may have some new insight for you, "When the game is over IT ALL GOES BACK IN THE BOX" by John Ortberg. In other words you can't take any of this with you, all this STUFF is temporary. The only thing you take is your character, your acts of love and compassion. Consider where your treasure is and the story of the Prodigal Son (or daughter). What good does it do to keep score of who gets what and when, it seems to be hurting you so much? Let go of the disappointment about the "will", don't confuse the contents of a will with the measure of Love one has for you. Just love your Mom and sister while you have them.
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BurntCaregiver May 2023
@when

It's known as a 'Slap In The Face' then a parent cuts one of their kids out. It's a double-whammy when the one cut out has to find out from someone else because mom or dad don't have enough of a backbone to say so themseves.

No one is "keeping score" of what the sister is getting.

The OP's MIL is screwing over her son. She has money but expects him to pay for things she needs like the $3,000 sewer line repair. Then she got bent out of shape because he didn't buy her a new car.

Really? The OP and her husband are just supposed to forget about all that and just love mom and sister while they have them?

My good Greek grandmother who was a wonderful and loving woman had a very wise saying.

Forgive, but never forget.

Amen to that, Ya-ya.

You know, this is a support group. You're not supposed to guilt-trip and gaslight the people in a support group which is exactly what you're doing, whenlovelistens.
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MGS — if you have children your primary responsibility is not to cost your children money. DH is depleting your future reserves by spending any money to cover her home expenses and that is wrong. You will have less for your elder yeas. As others have posted children should never count on an inheritance but at the same should not have to pay parents’ expenses. That is the gift parents leave children.
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BurntCaregiver May 2023
@Hothouseflower

Guaranteed if mom outlives her money in this case the first person whose door will be knocked on will be her son who she cut out.
She (and likely the sister and rest of the family) will expect that son and his wife (the OP) to take her in and become her caregivers.
I do enjoy a bit of responsible sport. I would bet on exactly this outcome happening here.
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UPDATE: This is MightGetSmart. I could not figure out my account, long story, so started again. Please accept my apology for confusion. I will try to answer questions as best I can. Thank you to everyone who has replied. All input is valuable. First, let me correct an error. SIL has only received 4 vehicles from her dad/stepmom. Second, MIL will not show us any paperwork, says they did NOT go to any attorney, will is probably handwritten, don’t know if there is POA. I know something about wills, POAs, Medicaid preparation, MIL doesn’t want my input. MIL is in stable health right now, but if emergency arises SIL will have to navigate how to get money because house is still under reverse mortgage. The lump sum she received is long gone. Third, hubby did write his sister and tell them we are NO contact. Some people just walk away, but he wanted to state his reasons so mom is not confused. We feel certain mom will be hurt, daughter will be indignant on her mom’s behalf, slander us, BIL will have to do what repairs he can. BIL is a salesman. MIL prefers hubby does repairs as he has more skills. Fourth, this is NOT about money. It’s about hubby seeing reality. Mom/sister appear to be in a trauma-bonded relationship that doesn’t include him, except if he can give money or repairs. Daughter has used mom over many years, mom complains to son, but secretly needs to be needed by daughter, doesn’t really want to break the cycle. MIL never listens to hubby. Very stubborn. Fifth, we see now that mom gifting the daughter the entire estate has probably been a long-term thing that hubby didn’t know about. Several years ago he started telling mom she needs to get her affairs in order, she always pushes back hard. “Don’t push me.” Then he asked recently and mom said It’s done already! Then she let the cat out of the bag… everything is left to your sister. When I spoke to MIL she seemed to know this was a hurtful revelation, she got defensive with a list of ill treatment from us which is just gaslighting. There was zero ill treatment from us, except perhaps not buying the things she wanted. SIL must be upset with mom now. “He didn’t need to know!”
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Jamesj May 2023
Sometimes you just have to take a step back from relationships that are hurtful and not healthy....even if it's family.
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MightGetSmart - what is in a will ONLY matters IF those assets actually still exist as an asset to be a part of their after death estate. With a Reverse Mortgage on MiL home, this is not likely. I haven’t read all the dz of other posts but I think by being estranged from MiL, y’all may have way waaaay bypassed a bullet.

Here’s why: MiL is 88 with all sorts of health challenges, no significant savings & home with Reverse Mortgage. Home can only be MILs or inherited by whomever named in will IF mortgage, it’s interest & fees is paid off either in full or at 90% within 30-90 days of MiL death or notification to RM company that you want to close out the loan & acquire the house. You mention 200K equity, based on what??? RM have hefty interest & fees - all have to be repaid in addition to $ RM paid MiL. If 200K is tax assessor value, that’s not what RM figure is. RM will have a close out loan payoff $ figure that has to be requested by borrower or their heirs. Could be huge as interest compounding. What is that figure?? RM do allow family to pay off RM at 90% & tends to be by line of credit from a bank as it’s in full 60-90 days. If neither mom nor Sissy have $ to pay off RM, house will revert back to RM company, which will bring in a subcontractor to remove everything & get it market ready & it gets sold.

MiL only source of $ is mo Social Security income, right?? Which is not realistically enough to maintain her home as you & hubs have paid for maintenance, repairs on the home that is under a Reverse Mortgage, correct? Do you have any idea if your MiL had gotten a compliance letter from the RM company prior to her (MiL) asking your hubs to do work on the house????
To me this is mucho importante!!! If I were you, I’d be interested in finding out if this was the situation….. cause if it was, your MiLs house is on a red flag list for RM lender. RM have in the paperwork that the owner (MiL) is fully responsible for all maintenance, repairs and upkeep (taxes, insurance if not folded into mortgage) on the property; & if not done, the Mortgage can be “called in” and pay off due in full & if not the RM can evict owner. 100% allowed. I’d be wary that MiLs house has been placed on a list & the work hubs did, essentially put a bandaid on the problem. But if MiL has no $, it’s going to happen again. & this time you & hubs are not going to be there to help. Mortgage Co can call in the loan due to noncompliance. I’d be on the watch for this & ready to deal with whining and pleading from Mil & Sis should this happen.

Who is POA? if hubs is POA, imo, he should resign and let his mom know this in writing & sent certified mail. MiL lending $ over time & commingled finances with Sissy and lax record keeping is going to be a minefield for gifting issues (and penalties from this) for the day that she ends up having a LTC Medicaid application filed. Being POA has a required fiduciary duty & Sissy has & is going to undermine this from happening. So for hubs & your own sanity, cleave yourself from any POA situation if it exists please.
Also if he was POA in the past, find the document where that changed and set it aside to show neither hubs nor you are responsible for the train wreck that is coming.

At 88, chances are she’s going to have a bad fall; get hospitalized (MediCARE); sent to rehab (MediCARE) at a NH; then determined she cannot safely return home so becomes custodial resident at the NH & as she has no $ files LTC Medicaid application. Which requires her to do a copay of her SS income to the NH. Detailed lookback on her financials is required & those $ exchanges with Sis will surface and become a penalty placed for MiL LTC Medicaid eligibility. Also RM will be called in as she is now in a NH. Quite the train wreck.

Do not let hubs ever personally sign off on any paperwork for his mom.
Good luck dealing with all this.
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notgoodenough May 2023
I just wanted to say Igloo, you continually amaze me - you always give such great, PRACTICAL, PRAGMATIC advice that cuts through much of the emotional baggage and gets to the "nuts and bolts" reality of a financial situation insofar as caregiving goes! Thank you!
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MightGetSmart - so okaaaaay on MILs 500K home, that it’s supposedly in the black for Reverse Mortgage is unusual. Usually ya run RM payoff #’s, add in extra 10-15% & it simply doesn’t make sense to even consider buying it. But it may be an outlier; & I bet Sissy is banking (literally & figuratively) on this and on Brother coming in to help as that’s what he always caves in & does. The heart & wallet tug on this for Sissy to your hubs is that it could mean $100,000 / $150,000.

Yiu still have info from 2 years ago, so I bet you can do quick tally as to where it (the $ in play) is at now. If insurance is being folded into mortgage that’s a wild card for increased costs for a lot of States if it’s at all a State with coastal boundary. Reddit personal finance groups tend to be very good insight on RM workings. Especially as to how the RM load on charges to get a property “market ready”.

If mom is in the black for the RM, if she stays at the house then dies, family / heirs have roughly 90 days to pay off in full a HUD backed RM at 90% of RM balance. Let’s say 350K RM but house has tax collector value 480K and could sell for 425K (cause roof replacement). Most banks will not do a mortgage on a RM property, as paperwork is sticky. So heirs need to do a 90% cash buy. $ 315,000.00 cash buy. If y’all do this, it has to be 100% only in your & hubs name. But it’s yours and you can sell it for 425K & bad roof. Sissy will be pissed. If heirs / family do not act, then RM will have a subcontractor take over getting it market ready asap, including removing everything from property, deducting all co$t$ from the $ it sells for which is paid to the heirs as per your moms valid will. It is IRS reported income to heirs.

If mom moves out, goes into a NH, after a fixed period away (6 mos?) from the home, RM calls in loan. Mom or family can buy house but at full pay off. Otherwise terms of the RM happen & house reverts to RM for them to sell. If it sells for more than payoff and co$t$ to get it market ready, excess $ paid to mom. IRS Reported income. Should mom gift any of house sale $, as it’s a recent sale and tax reported, Medicaid will know & place transfer penalty on her Medicaid application if mom gifts a penny. And ya know Sissy will have MiL do that. It will be a clusterF if Sissy’s files LTC Medicaid for MiL.

Here’s basically how transfer penalty works….. it’s a math (division) problem. Each State LTC Medicaid has a $ amount it pays a facility for daily room&board. Let’s say it’s $ 234.50 a day. And this $234.50 is paid obstensibly from day 1 of filing of LTC Medicaid application. The elder entered a NH in Feb of this year. Elder transferred land with tax assessor value of $250K to niece 3 years ago (let’s say in 2020). It surfaces in the caseworker database review this month, which is at month 4 of LTC Medicaid application review. Medicaid places ineligiblity on application from date of application with a penalty period of 1,066 Days or almost 3 years based on a $ 234.50 Medicaid reimbursement room&board day rate. Penalty: 250,000.00 divided by 234.50 per day = 1,066.098 days of ineligiblity starting date application filed.
The rub in this is that elder is in a NH accruing a bill each & every day which the NH is fully expecting someone to pay. Medicaid application take 2-6 months. So could be quite the bill if ineligible & transfer penalty placed.

POA will find it difficult to make niece do anything if truly gifted. May be able to go after niece if niece took advantage of vulnerable adult if elder and POA want to go this route & file APS, police report, criminal charges, etc.

Mighty, your description on Sil has red flags flying should LTC Medicaid get filed on MiL. Autos bought, expenses joint, incomes commingled. I know its attractive to look at possible $$$ from house/RM but could be beyond a hot mess to get through especially if it involves having to get SiL and her family out of the house to sell it. Good luck!
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CaringinVA May 2023
wow Igloo! Thank you for breaking this down with the numbers. I find this helpful for myself as we navigate next steps for my MIL.
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My mom did this to me at the urging & insistence of my sibling who was POA. I was doing everything that needed to be done for her with some help from my 2 sons.

After he told me her health care & finances were “none of my business” & that he had POA & control I told him I was done.

She passed 2 years ago & the hurt is still there. I would just visit with her if I were your husband and not do one more thing or spend any more of my time or money fixing anything. Let sis take care of it all! It sure sounds like they were both being sneaky about all of this.

Wishing you both the best!
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MightGetSmarter May 2023
Yes, you get it. And I'm sorry for what happened to you! I truly understand your pain. Sibling abuse is horrible and haunting. Hubby's sister is Christian covert narcissist, mom is enabler. Sister has mom wrapped around her finger. Sister will keep telling mom that son/my hubby is horrible and greedy which is often what a narcissist will do... project their bad behavior on others. I mean talk about horrible and greedy! Sister won't take care of mom unless she gets everything? Turns mom against son? Mom has never offered son/my hubby anything... not even a photograph. Sister will throw away what she doesn't want instead of offering anything to brother/my hubby. Sister thought she held all the cards... sole heir, POA, brother to fix things and chip in on repairs, but mom had a moment of true goodness and spilled the beans. Hubby is truly grateful to his mom for the gift of knowing. Now he can choose his own destiny.
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It's her money, not yours.Do what you can for his mother and stop the greed.
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Jada824 May 2023
It’s not greed…….can you imagine what it would have cost the mother if she had to pay for everything the son did for her.

It costs him time and $$ for what he has done and cutting him out is like a slap in the face. Let the daughter take care of everything from now on & just visit with your mom when you can
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Cut her off let the sister do all the work
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You say your husband wishes now to cut connections with his mom and sis, feeling used (as from your description it sounds he was).
I would encourage him, if that makes him happy.
And I would encourage him to continue helping his mom if THAT will make him happy.

You say that Mom and sister now live together, attend church, shop, and pay bills: you describe them as "living a cozy little life". So it does sound as though THEY are ALSO happy.

You have told us mom has a reverse mortgage and has been "gifting" to sister.
Honestly, your having informed her of the facts in all that, it seems you have done your duty. Truthfully, there will, after the high interest rates for the RM are paid, likely not much left to worry about.
I don't get the impression that your helpful husband was ever going things for Mom in hopes of financial gain--at least not from your description. It is simply who he is--the good man you married.

So perhaps now is a time for peace. Let Mom and sister live their cozy lives of church and shopping, let son, your husband, now have a good rest, and checking in with the rare to occ. phone call, and everyone just get on with life.

I can't see why that wouldn't perhaps work for all? Do remember, sadly, parents often do more for a child they see as needy and inept. All the way back from "The Prodigal Son" of biblical fame, and back I am certain a good deal longer. The capable child is seen as needing less parenting, support. Sad, but oh-so- true.
I wish you the very best, Might, and I wish peace for your hubby.
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That was very long.

I hope you found your answer.
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MightGetSmarter May 2023
That was passive aggressive. Hope you have a better tomorrow. See how that feels?
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