The nursing home is holding my Mother "hostage" with a POA that was forged. Any help?

Also, Lucy, re my last comment in reference to your last comment re momlover needing help I didn't think you were referring to the help she came here asking for re the forged POA but she had asked for people who'd had experience with such; while in my situation there wasn't one actually forged, there didn't need to be because they didn't even ask for documentation of it but it was lied about and said they had it when they didn't, which led to me not being told about a fall and injury my dad had that I should have been informed about so that I could make a proper decision regarding his care; it was only because he had two-fold care with the other party knowing my role in his care that I was informed and then only because of another "mistake", if you will, which is what had resulted in those people even having been allowed to be the ones handling his care, in the first place, so lesson learned, always doublecheck and confirm everything; had I done that, which I should have, I would have learned that the reason we were sent there was invalid and would not have been, therefore we would not have been using them to begin with, but instead the people we'd used before who knew my role and would have been quick to let me know what had happened and furthermore, would have let me know if my dad's house was getting to a point of being considered uninhabitable, which it had when they were doing his care before, not because of them but because of who he had in there, but this was before I got the POA.

Lucy, there have been several commenters on this thread who have said momlover does not need to take her mom home

I can see, however, your confusion in thinking I thought you had a child at home; maybe I shouldn't have posted that when I did but I believe I'd just come out of a conversation with someone, who, at least in the case of a child; not sure they'd feel the same way with a parent, who, at least in the hospital, believed you should stay with that child 24/7 and anybody who did anything less, even if the hospital ok'd it, should give that child up for adoption; I was trying to make the comparison between that being you wanting to have your mom home with you 24/7 and those - yes, maybe especially Lucy, and she's entitled to her opinion - those who felt and feel differently, that I would hope they wouldn't have quite the attitude that person had toward, yes, it was my dil and my gd; I was just actually trying to advocate for you; maybe it just all came out wrong

momlover, I'm confused by your comments to me, as well; maybe I really don't know how to express myself, but far from trying to marginalize your circumstances and need for help; I was trying to help you; I think Lucy at least got it

momlover, I don't recall implying you did; was trying, I believe, to make the comparison between dad's grandson, who wasn't a child, taking care of him, and you taking care of your mom

Something about this does not make any sense to me at all. Maybe I'm missing something. If so, what am I missing?

I've never heard of a failed guardianship fling because someone else had a POA.

Guardianship is determined on the testimonies of two doctors saying that the person in question is no longer competent to handle their business in a business like fashion. Members of the immediate family are contacted and those who want to show up in court to contest or support the guardianship case.

When was her guardianship trial?

When was it and what were the results?

When is this next trial scheduled for?

Debdaughter I don't have children at home.

Thank you LucyCW.

Momlover I'm confused by your comment directed to me as I have never said that any of your posts offended me. I believe you to be a caring compassionate person and I didn't think you would want to hurt anyone else. For that reason, and that reason alone I pointed out, as gently as I could that some of your wording may hurt others on this terrible journey. I am extremely lucky in that at this moment in my own travels with dementia I'm not hurt by people's words unless they are directed at me personally.
As you chose to make this aspect of your journey public knowledge I shall make a comment on it, but unless called to respond to a "personally" addressed comment I shall be withdrawing from this arena to offer my help to people who choose to listen to the help they ask for.
I wish you well in your forthcoming battles of which I am sadly sure there will be many.
Moreover I wish your Mother well, I "pray" that she may be surrounded by people who understand the journey that she is on. People who are caring, kind and considerate of Her needs and who can make the right decisions for her well being.
You will I'm sure be upset that clearly I'm hoping that your M stays in a place other than the loving home that you wish to offer.
I don't for one millisecond doubt your love for your Mother, what deeply saddens me is the blinkers that love is giving you. No matter how much you love her, I personally believe that you are Not the best or the safest place for your M to end her life. I know that sounds harsh, but the only reason I say this is your continued avowal that you do not give a fig for the stages/nature of dementia.
If you point blank refuse to even consider the little that is known of the enemy "dementia" then You can not be the best help for your M.
Sadly, love will not overcome all when it comes to this disease. People can & many do take care of their loved ones at home. But they don't do it easily or without having to face dementia on it's terms. LucyCW

CWLucy I didn't intend to offend you as how could I when we're all at different stages of our loved ones senile dementia. Please do not take post personally that don't apply to you personally.

Debdaughter I am really sorry for all you have endured with your Dad, but I don't think you should marginalize other's circumstances and need for help.

Thank God for everyone's humane and civil responses as most people have a different perspective of matters of the heart. I truly thank God that you all are "my brother's keeper." I just want you to understand that I feel I love my mother so much that I feel I can tolerate the stages she has do endure as much as myself. My strength is in the love I still feel from childhood.

My mother is in a NH. It has a dementia floor. Although my mother has vascular dementia, she does not need to be on the dementia unit. Informally, I'd say that 80% of the patients on mom's "non dementia " unit have dementia.

Look, I'm sorry if it seems to you or anyone else that i/we are not sympathetic to your situation. I guess it's that I've seen folks, both in my own life and on this forum, attempt to care for physically disabled and demented parents at home with near disastrous effects for both patient and caregiver. I guess I/we are trying to point out the downsides, and to educate the OP about aspects of dementia behavior that she appears not to understand.

My apologies if I don't think that her mom's Medicaid and SS are going to cover 24/7 caregiving now anymore than they did at her sister's house.

Momlover123, my mother clearly has dementia. She is not on the dementia floor. She doesn't need to be -- her behavior is not disruptive to others, and, wheel-chair bound, she is not an "elopement" risk. (She can't wander.) I've been visiting her for over a year and my guess is that at least half of the other residents on her floor have dementia.

My daughter works in a very nice assisted living facility which also has "memory care" units. She says that 60% of the residents of the "regular" ALF units also have dementia.

Not being in the dementia units does not mean you do not have dementia.

This is just another example of your lack of understanding about dementia. You are certainly right that it doesn't take a PhD to love someone! But your lack of taking Mom's dementia seriously and apparent unwillingness to learn about that has me very worried. Dismissing it as "insignificant" is scary.

Almost all of us with loved ones with dementia started out ignorant on the topic. No shame in that. And it doesn't take a PhD to be able to learn.

My husband wanted to go home for a solid 3 months early in his dementia. Where was he? At home with me, in the house we'd liked in for 12 years.

PS. Debdaughter re your last comment "but what makes everybody else any better than her in thinking they know best;" I don't know what you've read but that's not an impression I've got from anyone else writing here.
As to your final question " what makes it that she needs help?" I'd say the answer was here " The nursing home is holding my Mother "hostage" with a POA that was forged. Any help?"

Debdaughter, sorry you seem to have found my post offensive/distressing. I won't refer in detail as this is not the topic for such a thing. Though I will say that No, I'm not "guilt tripping" myself. I know that every decision I have made in relation to those I have cared for and now care for was the very best I could do at that moment.

Lucy, let's back up a minute, momlover reminds me of, let's say, call her, childlover, who thinks that if her child is in the hospital that she should be there 24/7 for however long, even if that long is a yr. and she has 5 other children at home, that she's obligated to "force" them onto someone, anyone, else to take care of while she stays at the hospital with that one, which, if she can pull it off, is her prerogative, but she does not have the prerogative to insist that that be the protocol for everyone else, which she does, but I have not seen momlover do, so I'm wondering if you're guilt-tripping yourself a little. I honestly am not sure I've seen her shown that much compassion, understanding and sympathy here so much as being offered advice - excellent? no sure so much. Not sure I've seen her do to anyone here what I've seen done to her. To many people having their loved one with family is far preferable to having them in a facility; to those to whom that's not so much a priority I think they're the ones who are just internalizing her statement, not so much an attribute of her in making that comment; she didn't say anything about what anybody else was doing, just where she was coming from. Not to say that those who do otherwise don't love their ones they place in a facility.
Maybe she doesn't fully realize what could happen but it hasn't happened yet; that's not where she is now.
I've seen or at least heard of what you're talking about, although haven't quite had to deal with it, but have to an extent; still remember bringing my dad home after taking him on a 2 hr. trip to a hospital where he thought he was going to have surgery and was prepared for that, only to get there and be told that, no, they don't do it on people his age; now why couldn't they just tell us that before we went and save us the trouble of making the trip only to just have to turn around and make it back, so double the trip in one day, like he wasn't too old for that to then be faced with having to have a long ordeal of trying to heal otherwise when if it weren't bad enough for surgery was it really that bad so just wasn't going to do it after all and there I was left to try to cope with it myself and on a weekend no less with nobody willing to help, so what was I to do? so do know a little bit about it, thought I was going to have to do something that weekend.
Was there with my mom when she developed sundowner's in the hospital and thought I was keeping her there - there she knew not where she was - against her will and wanted her best friend instead of me, so, yes, have been there a little.
and have and am a member of an actual online group of caregivers who've done exactly that and kept their family member at home; maybe for reasons that weren't the best but for their own reasons they did so and never put them in a facility, which is that not their choice?
and, yes, though I didn't do it myself, my dad's own grandson lived that high alert life, maybe didn't have to be very long and maybe would have tried to get help soon, but there was that time that yes, that was done.
what would we have done if things had gone on? not sure, but until that time came was it not our choice to keep him at home, rather than have someone insisting we place him? Did we really want to turn that over to someone else who didn't know him? And, yes, possibly that's exactly what would have happened; did we really want to see that or more to the point have someone telling us we had to?
maybe it would have had to come to that but wouldn't that have been our decision not someone else's?
right now she's not there so she is meeting it where she is at this point and as I stated earlier I, too, have dealt with someone claiming to have POA when they didn't, so that's considered "fighting the system" when you shouldn't? granted, I did have it, though it took some doing because, somewhat like her mom, sorta, by the time he needed to have it, he didn't really understand it anymore, so I understand it makes for a hard situation but what makes everybody else any better than her in thinking they know best; what makes it that she needs help?

Momlover, I understand that you love your Mum very much. BUT...please, please think before you post sometimes and be sensitive to the feelings of others on this list. You've been shown compassion, understanding and sympathy here as well as being offered excellent advice. I'm sure being the loving person you so obviously are you'd want to give these things to others. Comments such as "I love my Mom to much to leave her in a public aid aging facility when she could be in a loving home with family." can come across as very hurtful to someone who's loved one is in precisely those circumstances. People who come on this forum love the people they care for, if they didn't they wouldn't bother being here.
I know that you don't want to acknowledge the horror that is dementia, but if you won't look at it as what could happen to your Mum please at least try to be aware that for some of us, no matter how much we love it can't be enough.
You can love someone 24/7 with every ounce of your being, but that does not mean that you can cope with being punched, threatened with being stabbed/strangled, kicked, spat at, sworn at by the person you love and who once loved you.
To see the terror in the eyes of your loved one who know longer knows you and sees you as a frightening stranger intent on doing them harm is one of the most heartbreaking experiences.
To constantly (as in 5+ times a day) clean up your dearly beloved who has smeared faeces on every surface, every inch of their body, eaten it. Even though they lock their jaws shut at food.
To spend every night, all night on alert so that your cared for doesn't hurt you or themselves.
Sometimes, sadly all to often loving means letting professionals do what we want to be ours to do. It means letting go and letting them take daily care of our loved ones. It's steeling our hearts when our foul mouthed loved one gazes adoringly at a member of staff and speaks gently, lovingly to them.
So please, please be aware that there are times when outside intervention is vital.
With dementia we all have to meet it where it takes our loved ones, in the end you can keep fighting the system, keep ignoring advice assured that You know best, but please because you do love your Mum realise that you need help too.

If you are determined to go ahead again for guardianship of your mother, you better have an iron clad plan to present to the courts on your ability to be able to properly care for your mother. It includes having your home wheelchair assessable, proof of 24/7 care arrangements, financially ability to pay for that care. Your mother's income alone will not cover it if you work fulltime. You will have to show the ability to take your mother to medical appointments. You cannot ever leave your mother alone. You will also have to report to the courts periodically in regards to you mother's financials. Do you have this all planned out to present to the courts?

Momlover,

There are people on this board caring for elders with limited mobility and dementia. My dad has dementia and still lives with my mom in independent living. I care for them and it really has taken over my life. They dont have any mobility issues as your mom does.

It concerns me that you dont seem to have a grasp on what you are taking on. To take an elder with mobility issues and dementia in your home is a HUGE undertaking..it is NOT equal to a mother taking care of a child. The elder will just get worse over time.

Dementia is so hard to deal with. My dad is not in a nursing home (yet)..but still wants to "go home" every day....no matter where he is. He has days of confusion and anxiety that are very difficult to deal with.

I do understand wanting your Mom to be in the best place possible. Maybe you could manage her in your home for a while. Another option might be to look for a better NH or assisted living for her. Please take the time to read some of the posts here to get a grasp on what you are taking on before your big legal battle.

Babalou and LucyCW The Report of Physician suggested senile dementia only, and she has forgetfulness and episodes of confusion. Hence, her quality of life is severely limited in a NH. She could go anywhere wheel chair accessible with family. My son is grown. I have time to spare...let it be at home with the most important person in my life.

Babalou, Maggie, Katy, Jeanne, CMagnum, etc. I love my Mom to much to leave her in a public aid aging facility when she could be in a loving home with family. My next court date is 9/18 and I'll let you know the outcome. I am still looking for a lawyer if anyone has advice, but I think I've exhausted everything but prose.

"These phases of dementia have no significance to me. "

If these phases don't have any significance to you, then you're in great denial of their reality and seriousness. Please talk with someone face to face who knows how real and serious these phases are, plus how quickly they become more than one person cal deal with 24/7.

All, my mother is not on the dementia floor (4th floor I was told). She's on the 2nd floor for the disabled with PT issues for the most part.

Jeanne Gibbs, LucyCW, etc. bless your hearts. Mothering and nurturing does not take a PhD or we would not exist. "Twice a child, one a man." Therefore, that's life. So, twice a child would mean a state of dependency twice in life. I am just choosing to mother and nurture my mother in return. These phases of dementia have no significance to me. I do understand that the date on a POA does not expire, but the NH will not allow my mother to renounce it even though she is begging to come home with me. My mother has not been eating along with her two roommates. One woman was cursing not to eat, and the other is holding the food in her mouth and prescribed a G-tube like they tried to prescribed my Mom when she wasn't eating. My Mom is in an unhealthy situation if she doesn't want the food that's causing her to lose weight rapidly. I got a quote of $495/hr for a lawyer, but should humanity be defined by money. There's no probono for contested guardianship, so the NHs do as they please privately. Thank you all so much for your insight. I have always loved too hard.

Please listen to the folks on this forum who are giving you excellent advice. You are missing the opportunity to make your mom's life better where she is. Your mom lacks the cognitive capacity now to change her Power of Attorney.

Your mom wants to go home when she sees you. And doesn't when someone else asks her. That alone should speak volumes to you about what your purpose should be. Love her, visit her, support her. Bring her treats. Bring her food from home. Make peace with your sister so that you'll be able to take her out for a ride. Be at peace yourself.

I feel so very sorry for you in this awful situation but as has been said by jeannegibbs you don't understand clearly enough the nature of dementia. You say your Mum begs to come home and I absolutely believe you. But, does your Mum mean what you're hearing? Let me try to to explain. My friend's Mum pleaded to "go home to France" where she was born & lived many years. Her UK based family finally moved her to a wonderful NH in France. She begs to come home whenever they speak to her on the phone, yet they've seen live Skype of her perfectly happy when she can't hear them. In my own case my BIL asks to go home on a regular basis. He lives in his own home with his 2 cats where he has been happily living for 5 years. If I talk to him he wants to "go home." Very often people with dementia talk of going home, but it's not the places we're thinking off. Home for them is often a home of yesteryear when life was safe & they were in control. But they can't say this.
My advice is 1) stop feeling guilty. You've always done the best you can for your Mum and judging with hindsight won't help change things. 2) stop fighting the people who are trying to help your Mum. Try to see them not as the enemy but as part of the team helping to make your Mum's life as good as possible. Get them on side, ask them how You can help. You're the expert in Your Mum, But, they're the experts in dementia care.
3) Elders lose weight even with the most loving care. So treat her often to high calorific treats that don't interfere with her meds. 4) use the time energy your expending in fighting the system to love yourself and your Mum. Find ways to brighten her life now. A memory box of small gift wrapped things that remind her of better times. Special hand cream, if she'll let you massage her hands when you visit. 5) be gentle with yourself and others around you. It's true that honey is nicer than vinegar. Good luck and my thoughts are with you.

Momlover123, I don't think a single person on this thread as suggested that your mother doesn't need and deserve family love.

You clearly do not have a grasp of POA, guardianship, etc. I certainly hope you are not trying to represent yourself again in the appeal. It will be a repeat of the last hearing.

You also do not not have a grasp of the nature of dementia. IT GETS WORSE. A person with dementia may be able to walk just fine in May and be totally wheel-chair bound by July. That's what "progressive disease" means. They may carry on lucid conversations in March and be uttering gibberish in June. This is the nature of the disease.

The fact that the notary's seal expired in 2010 has NOTHING to do with the document. It was signed and witnessed in 2007, when the seal was valid. Do you honestly think that every notarized document expired when the seal of the person who notarized it expired? What kind of chaotic sense would that make?

You sound like a very caring and compassionate person. The medical and technical details of this situation seem over your head. Not Your Fault. Love your mother where she is. Let others worry about the details.

Babalou I think it's too late. The NH will continue to hold my mother "hostage" because my sister unknowingly made her a ward of the state when she admitted her to the NH as my sister was always saying that I would make my mother a ward of the state if I seek guardianship, but she had already made my mother a ward of the state when she put her in a NH according to Pam Stegma. Pam please explain further.

Correction:...listen to her, but he refused while standing at the front desk a few yards from the day room where my mother was asking to go home with me.