Toxic people are not worth being in our lives, even our parents. If they are destroying us, we have to make changes. Do you agree?

Our parents train us to be what they want us to be/need us to be/or think best for us to be. Without a great deal of help and strength, given this is done in our formative years, their training will STICK. If they train us to be their doormats, then doormats we will be. Likely for them and anyone else who cares to step upon us. Not everyone is worthy of our care. For me, I will choose carefully where I lavish my loving care; it is not an unlimited supply.

Very true, Alva. It is interesting to see how past generations lived. I just finished reading the book Act Natural, written by Jennifer Traig. The ‘good old days’ weren’t always so good! The chapter on how parenting was done during the Victorian period was astonishing.

You are very smart Alva not to have an unlimited supply. What a wise way to describe it. I love your choice of words. I suppose that is why so many speak of boundaries as well. Thanks for responding.

Some antics can be forgiven or accepted if a parent has dementia, alz, or some other issue they legitimately cannot control or recognize. Not any less painful for those who bear the brunt, but as they say here, their brains are broken.

And then... there's the posts I see over and over and over again here. How a parent is making their grown children's lives hell, and does so purposefully! Most of these parents did so even when their children were young, too. Just like when they were little, these adult children are killing themselves to appease the mean parent, even bringing the parent to live in their home (or never leaving the parent's home)! It never works, but they keep trying.

Whenever others suggest a facility, or some other arrangement, these ideas are inevitably shot down.

"Oh, I can't put them in a home. I promised her (or other parent who died first) that I wouldn't do that."
"They'd get mad and hate me if I placed them anywhere."
"But I already feel so guilty!" WHY?!
"I have to let them do what they want or they get mad."
"Mom/Dad have run off everyone else, so I have to do it."
"But it's my Mom/Dad so I have to just suck it up."

I don't mean to make fun or deny anyone's suffering. It's actually quite sad. Some are just hoping that one day, the parent will realize they've been rotten people and will soften up. That maybe they can earn their love somehow or at least validation. It'll never happen but they'll die trying. It's very tough to accept your parents weren't good people or just did not have the capacity or ability to love their kids. And that it's not because you were a bad child or a burden... it's them, not you. It wasn't because you weren't good enough.

As others have pointed out, if it were a husband/wife situation and one spouse was acting like this, anyone would tell them it was abusive and not live with them anymore, and stop doing for them. But when it comes to parents, all that goes out the window.

Everyone is different... though I see a recurring thread of the grown child feeling they don't deserve happiness, don't deserve respect, don't have a voice (especially the daughters). It's like it never occurs to them that it can be any other way. I think some don't even realize that's how they feel, it's so ingrained! That there's no way to change it.

I wish people could see there's a middle ground. You can place an elder in a decent facility and/or make sure they have basics of shelter and food, but you don't have to live with them or take their abuse! It seems some people think setting boundaries or walking away is akin to tossing their elder on the streets to die.

Loopy,

I agree with a your statements. Makes perfect sense to me.

I went through it myself and it boggles my mind. I must admit I was so blind for a long time. I had promised my daddy that I would care for mom.

You know, I look back at my behavior, Loopy and I felt like if I didn’t have mom’s permission about something that it was just out of the question, which simply wasn’t true.

She was living in my house and I was acting like I was living with her instead of the other way around. Crazy thinking, huh?

Honestly, it took me years to come around. Thank God for all of you who didn’t give up on me and kept drilling wisdom into my thick skull so I would see the light.

The transition is still hard sometimes but mom moving out was for the best. I truly burned out. I truly sacrificed my entire life for her. So thanks for saying your remarks. They are honest.

I've been ruminating on this for a couple of days, NHWM.

Our mothers were raised in a VERY different time. No birth control. Women were expected to marry, have babies, not rock the boat. They had very few choices. Women who wanted to work, who got divorced, who didnt want kids were shamed and ostracized by all.

With no real power, either economic or societal, our mothers' generation developed unhealthy coping skills (passive aggressive "zingers"; self-indulgent behavior, "keeping up with the Jones'" in terms of material possessions and the "perfection" of their children. TV made it seem that life was like an episode of the Leave it to Beaver--pearls, heels and full makeup at breakfast.

We grew up in a world that changed what women were allowed and expected to do. We work and are not available to stay home with elderly parents. We have left unsatisfying marriages. We tell other people about our troubles. We see mental health professionals. Our expectations of our kids are very different.

I think that this leads to a mis-match in expectations between us and our elderly parents.

Barb.

Oh my gosh! So true! Know what I wonder about too? How will we go forth in the future? Every generation has something to contribute. How will future generations handle situations? Something to ponder as well.

Hey, we didn’t get to vote until 1920! Think we will ever see a woman president?

I have a friend that her dad still won’t go to a female doctor! Crazy, huh?

So yeah, reminds me of that old cigarette commercial, ‘We’ve come a long way!’ Hahaha, We still have a ways to go.

My daughter recently went to a conference with her professor and other students. Business major. So banks from all over the country attended.

Some big topics of discussion were the future of feds getting on board with the marijuana industry so the banks will be able to finance the marijuana market. Right now the banks can’t handle their accounts because it’s considered ‘money laundering.’ The banks are furious about it. The marijuana industry is mad because they want to be able to invest the money.

The other big topic was women still not getting paid as much as men in banking. Just crazy!

Very good point about the "old days", so to speak. I was born in the 70s and thus missed the June Cleaver era. :)

But yeah, my mom and her sisters never considered a career. They worked a few years in the secretarial pool until they had kids, and that was that. They were raised to be helpless, pretty much. Just look perfect and be nice and let the husbands handle everything else. I dread when they become widows, because grief aside, they will be unable to function without help. They don't even know how to pump their own gas!

You’re absolutely right, Loopy.

NeedHelp, it doesn't matter that it took a long time to come around; what matters is that you did! And it's not an easy task at all. There's been a zillion self-defeating things I've done or felt that I didn't even think to question.

My folks are almost 80 but doing fine overall and no caregiving needed yet. BUT... Mom broke her leg once and I had to babysit her at home during the day, and that was just a few weeks... and I was ready to roll her in the wheelchair onto train tracks by the time it was over. No way in hell would we ever be living together!

She isn't a bad person, just some narcissism and was babied/spoiled most of her life.. but also raised by a very anxious, easily angered, and depressed mother. But when I was a kid I'd notice how some "friends" would walk all over her, and she'd always excuse it with something like "oh, they didn't really mean it". She never stood up for herself and by default taught me the same. Just glosses over anything she didn't want to face or deal with. Just smile pretty! Everything's fine!

She's very fortunate she married my dad, who is overall a good person. The way she excuses some bad behaviors, she would have been a prime target for an abusive man. Until I met my husband who is a saint, I dated a few abusive (emotionally, never physically) men who never got their fill of hurting me somehow. Thank God I wised up.

Thanks Loopy, I appreciate your kind words. Means a lot to me.

I know what you are saying about mom’s excusing others too. My mom did that as well too, with my brothers, but never with me. Just mind boggling how sexist that generation was. They had the mentality of, “Boys will be boys!” That’s crap! They held their daughters to a higher standard and to serve men.

Okay, you are younger but if you watch the old television shows you will see it portrayed as the norm. Interesting, huh?

I grew up with parents who abused each other but not me.Got myself into an abusive marriage, had 2 small children and walked away. Then lived with my mother until she suddenly passed away .
My only close family moved to another State. I felt completely alone. Having two small children, I
did meet someone.And married
never suspecting he was a different type of abuser. A mentally manipulative abuser.So there I was having two more children with the manipulator. An extremely awful situation for the children as well as myself. Two of my children are stable and happy. The other two have many problems. I am walking away again after the damage has been done. I thought I was bringing them into a better situation. Mental abusers especially manipulative narcissists are ,in my opinion worse than physical abusers. They kind of sneak up on you .Before I could see it, the damage was done. I do not have the ANSWER. Nothing to do now but move forward. Unfortunately the past is done.....Onward...and count my blessings..

Realanswers,

I am so very sorry about your abuse. It breaks my heart. It truly does. You’re right it effects everyone in the family. I am very sorry your children witnessed that. Hugs!

I was watching an episode of Maude tonight and every time I watch it I always end up covering my mouth and think I can’t believe she just said that and I burst out laughing. Maude and her daughter were fighting about a boyfriend of Carol’s that Maude couldn’t stand. Maude forbid her daughter to see him. Carol saw him behind her back. Carol had one of her girlfriends come over to the house and she said my father is going to kill me that I am going out with an American boy and not one from my own country. OMG I kept saying!!! The father showed up at Maude’s house and DEMANDED that his daughter come back with him to their own country. She said no because she was happy living in America and had to stand up to her Father. All I kept thinking was how they were talking about this very subject on her show back in the 1970’s and how the girls had to stand up to their parents for what they believed in. At one point Maude told her daughter and the other girl about how Maude’s mother needed help in her old age and that she wasn’t giving up het life to take care of her. Maude had her own life to live. Maude said she had to stand up to her mother and tell her she wasn’t taking care of her. I know it’s just a tv show but they talked about this very subject and women’s rights back in 1977.

Elaine,

Yep! Nothing new, right?

agreed. You can pick your friends but not your family.l

The worst part of being taught to live for a parent(s), as I was. Is that at the end, you find out that a parent(s) just used you and you thought it was love, but it really was abuse!

I don't have the words for the pain, hurt and betrayal that my mother caused me and she doesn't think anything of it. She groomed me to take care of her, to fight for her and to clean up after her and I never realized it until after my dad died. How sad!!

I know I made decisions based on staying close to her although, I didn't do it on purpose. In fact, I thought I lived my life for me, but now I wonder--did I? Or did she directed my path?

Lately, I have been wondering will I ever really have a chance too or is it to late?!

Great thread NHWM, thought about starting the same kind of thread myself!

Barb,

God, you nailed that! You made very good points. My mother is passive-aggressive. Her "zingers" well lets say, they can be very hurtful. Thank God that I just let them fly over my head. I never do anything right in her eyes, but I have my sig other who tells me how great I do and I tell myself how great I do no matter what it is! I have even gotten back to being able to laugh at myself again!

I wonder sometimes if my mother was/is jealous not so much of me, but of the times I grew up in. I got to work, go to college, have a supportive partner. I didn't have to depend on a man to take care of me the way she did!

This resonated with me-- the title.

I slammed the door, literally on my toxic MIL yesterday.

Went with DH (he would never have gone to give her this if I hadn't said I would come along) to give her the Christmas present I bought, set up and organized the entire family to join in on--a Skylight, the photo "frame" that you email pics to and no need for a zillion frames and pics all over the fridge. Just one tidy looking frame and pics rotate through the queue as long as it's powered up.

DH isn't wearing his hearing aids, MIL isn't wearing hers so it's a shouting match. I'm not allowed to talk, unless she pointedly asks me something-then while I am finishing my sentence, my DH (who is trying to figure out her wifi password) jumps into the middle of what I'm saying and she SCREAMS at me "you shut up! When B is talking, you SHUT UP!" OK. I can take this for a while, but I wasn't able to get a full sentence out, ever.

I ask if I may sit in the living room and she says "no, you need to stay where I can see you". WTH does she think I am going to do?? I ask for a Diet Coke, as this was giving me a headache and she refused to let me have one, b/c then I would probably need the bathroom and I am not allowed to use her bathroom. (Looooong backstory). She says "You sit there and shut up when we are talking. I cannot understand it when 2 people talk at once and you NEVER shut up".

DH sits there like a dummy and I am sending him "SAY SOMETHING TO YOUR MOTHER OR I AM GOING TO KILL HER" vibes...and per usual, he says nothing to defend me.

Suddenly, I broke. 44 years of this crap. She used to just pinch my arm and hiss this at me, but she has no filter now and everything she thinks just comes pouring out.

I thought to myself "I am not a dang dog that is told to sit on the rug. I am OVER this. I am ALWAYS and I mean ALWAYS the bigger person and have taken her verbal abuse without ever talking back."

I got up and said "I am going to take it one better than just shutting up. I am leaving and I hope to never see you again. EVER." And I said to DH, "I'm going to my sister's. You can come get me or leave me there. I don't care." And then I slammed her back door so hard--oh that felt good.

Walked the 4 blocks to sis' house where I hung out with her family, ate too much chocolate and got a ton of hugs and love for the next 3 hours. I even got to use the bathroom. :)

Dh showed up, I thought he might be pretty mad, but all in all---he just sighed and said "why can't you just be nice to my mom, You know how she is". My SISTER said "why can't you be a man and stand up for your wife?"

"Mom's super old", he says "you just have to patient with her". I said, "No problem, hon, I don't intend to see her ever again. Had you said ONE WORD in my defense 44 years ago, we never would have gotten to the stage we're at. She was 45 when we got married. Who should have been the adult?" He just sighed and no more was said.

She is a toxic, miserable, angry woman with no friends, 2 sons who kind of hate her and a daughter who is running herself ragged trying to keep her happy----and it's impossible. She has done this to herself and it's just really, so sad. She could have had a good friend in me. I really tried--believe me, I have tried....but sometimes, you just have to completely cut a really toxic person out of your life.

I feel for my DH who can't stand up to her. She's mean and I wish I had BACK all the tears and sad hours of life she took from me. She was not worth it.

"Zingers'---I am scarred over from the thousands of those from over the years. No more.

I just wish I had broken the glass in the window when I slammed it. That would have made it feel so much more satisfactory. Sadly, both DH and MIL are too deaf to appreciate how hard I slammed that door.

ah---that rant felt good. However, a stronger woman would have done what I did 40 years ago.

Oh, and the Skylight? She hates it.

I wish I had back the time and energy dealing with toxic people I felt I needed to be nice to. Going along with “that’s the way they are” just emboldened them. It reinforced that if people were afraid of their nastiness, people would capitulate. How I wish I’d known that even in my moms last conversations with us, her words would be sharp, and her thoughts only about her, and there’s be no I-love you.

Midkid58, it is never too late to walk away from toxic people. Your husband should have your back and he doesn’t. It’s not too late to walk away from mother n law AND DH.

Midkid58,,you aren’t allowed to use the bathroom in your mother in laws house? And your DH is fine with that? He’s a mommas boy who never stood up to her. You deserve better than BOTH of them. Nobody deserves to be treated like sh*t!!!!

Midkid58, why can’t you just be nice to my Mom? Really? I am so sorry they act this way towards you. You deserve so much better than both of them!!

Midkid58, your Mother n law SCREAMS SHUT UP TO YOU? And your DH says and does NOTHING?????? Run, not walk away from BOTH of them!!!

MidKid,

Your MIL is crazy! She is past toxic. So sorry you have had to put up with her crap.

humes,

You got that right! We choose our friends. Family is another story!

Thanks, Shell.

This came out of me hitting my threshold of pain.

I can’t handle the games that people play. The hatred in their hearts.

I don’t think they realize that we have to give respect to get it.

Elaine,

MidKid has a MIL from hell, right? I swear she must have horns and a tail! I think my nick name for her MIL would be DEMON! She needs an exorcism. Hahaha

I am actually friends with a priest who does exorcisms. I should send him over to her house! She needs purification.

Needhelpwithmom, yes I agree with you!!! Midkid58 has a mother n law who is from hell!!! She must be a demon. The more I read what she wrote, the angrier I was getting at her POS mother n law. Imagine someone telling you that you couldn’t use the BATHROOM!!!!!

I knew going into my marriage that my MIL did not like me. I was 20 years old and stupid, stupid, stupid thinking that I could MAKE her love me.

My FIL was a joy and altho he was a troubled man, he did love me and I felt it. CG for him in his final months was an act of love and service that I do NOT regret, (MIL divorced FIL many years ago).

DH does NOT DO contention---hence, he will NEVER stick up for me. I accepted that 40+ years ago and still tried to get her to simply stop hissing 'zingers' at me. I went grey rock with her about 25 years ago and have had little to nothing to do with her. DH actually says "I can't go visit my mother b/c you won't come". Pointed out to him that he has not seen MY mother, who lives 5 minutes away for a few years.

I owe her nothing. She beat the soul out of my DH, and his brother (who is incommunicado with his mother)...and he still feels like a naughty little boy when he's with her. Therapy has helped, some, but he still gets depressed and when he goes to see her, he inevitably comes home and crawls in bed. This woman is beyond toxic.

Yet, I don't hate her, I feel very, very sorry for her. She is a cautionary tale. If you live a hate filled life.....in the end, you are all alone.

And she taught me, by example, what kind of MIL to NOT be. I have 5 inlaw kids and they LOVE MY GUTS. So---life has evened it all out.

I wouldn't leave my Dh over his mother, I understand the deep psychological damage she did and I can bring him joy...but had I known how she really was, I would not have married DH. And he knows it.

Anybody truly curious as to why I have to sit on a chair (if I am lucky) when I visit and not allowed use of the bathroom--let me know, it's kind of an unbelievable story.

And I have hundreds of them.

Midkid, your a better woman then I could ever be...because if it was me dealing with a MIL like that, I would have told her off 43 yrs ago! LOL!!

Have a Merry Christmas🎄🎅🎁