Anyone have experience with reverse mortgage and letter of competency?

Good luck. I don't see a question.

Why, is your mother arguing or something?

I would expect an experienced PCP/GP to have pretty much a template for this kind of situation - "this patient's cognitive capacity was assessed on [date] and it was concluded that she is no longer competent to make informed financial decisions" or something along those lines.

Mind you. I have personally come across a GP whose answers on an insurance claim form were hilariously - well, wrong is the only word for it. I solved that problem by attaching a list of errata to the form and submitting both to the insurance company, who paid up promptly, God bless 'em.

Will you have an opportunity to see the doctor's letter before you submit it to the RM lenders?

Good luck, Hangingon! I hope things work out well for you, and that your mom is getting good care at her rehab place.

Well I spoke to the administrator at my mom’s NH & told her that I needed the doctor who diagnosed my mom w/dementia to write a letter stating that my mom couldn’t make decisions regarding finances & she told me that “they normally don’t do that”..
She said the only thing they could do was write a letter in terms of being in compliance w/Medicaid’s rules as far as turning over my mom’s social security $ to them every month”.
Now without that letter the RM bank won’t acknowledge me as POA & I’m starting to get the process going of selling my mom’s house.
How the Hell am I going to get it sold if they don’t acknowledge me????
I can’t afford an attorney now because I have no money to pay them.
I’m not letting the RM co know that my mom’s not coming home yet because I need time to get whatever belongings I can out of her house, sell some stuff etc, because I know the second I tell them my mom’s not returning home, they’ll call in her loan.
My question is how else can I deal w/the RM & have them acknowledge me???
The other option they said they’d require (besides the medical letter stating mom not being able to make decisions) is to speak to her directly.
MY MOM DOES NOT KNOW her house is being sold.
She still thinks she’s going to get better, get stronger w/the physical therapy she’s doing & be able to go back home to the way it was before w/just a caregiver coming 4 hours a day for 5 days a week!!
She keeps telling me when I go to visit her “stop bringing so many clothes, it’s not like I’m moving in right”??
“Or maybe you want me too huh”???
“Oh, I can’t finish this muffin, take home & put it in the freezer for me, I’ll eat it when I’m home”..

It has been one of the most stressful things I have done in my life is having to “pretend” everything is alright as far as my mom’s thinking she’s going back home knowing that I’m clearing out a lot of her stuff, talking to rehabbers to try to get an idea of what the house will sell for & if that figure isn’t enough to cover the balance due on the RM, I’m going to have to walk away from it..
I am completely ALONE in all this.
I have no one to help me w/anything & my mom’s house is in such a state of mess that it’s taken me almost 7 hours just to go thru one of her bedroom dressers because my mom never filed anything (important papers, documents” are just thrown in drawers mixed in w/ the rest of her stuff that I have to open every God damn envelope to see what it is, read it, decide to keep or toss, etc..I think I’m close to losing my mind..

Get in touch with the doctor directly. Explain to the NH administrator that if you can't get a letter of incompetence, they will have to get emergency guardianship, because you won't be able to deal with mom's financial affairs. Make the is THEIR mess to clean up.

Alternatively, have the social worker sit down with mom and explain that she is really going to need to stay longer than just rehab and that you, her loving daughter, need her assistance in getting her house ready for sale.

BarbBrooklyn I don’t think it’s going to go over too well if my mom is told she’s never going back home & her house is being sold.
I believe she will have a heart attack or stroke.
She is SO anxiety ridden the past few days from being transferred from rehab section to long term that she set off the fire alarm yesterday.
She keeps asking the nurses to use their phones so she can call me & begs me to get her outta there because they’re are “so many sick people here & I don’t belong here”...

Why are you putting yourself through all this???

Your mom has moved into the LTC section of a NH. Her “rehab” phase is over. She is not going back home. Her income will now be under Medicaid LTC rules. If she should actually get $ from the RM once property sells, it all will become a spend down till she is once again “at need” for Medicaid.

RM are used to dealing with homeowners who get beyond being able to live in their homes & that move into a NH permanently. Let the RM call in the loan. Let them take over and deal with the property and sell it and IF there $ to her it’s all going to pay the NH till she’s re-eligible for Medicaid.

If there’s stuff you want from the house put it in your place or into storage. The RM will likely give you a period of time to clear out personal items.

Hangingon, woah woah woah.

Your mother has a dementia diagnosis. That is not at all the same thing as a declaration of incompetence.

Without its having been formally found that your mother is incompetent you do not have the authority to sell her home. You cannot make these decisions without her informed consent.

To be able to deal with the RM company, you can ask your mother to state to them that you have her permission to use your POA to manage her account. You can call them from the NH with her present and hand her the phone. If they need her consent in writing, you can draft and print a basic letter -

I am writing to give my permission for my daughter, [your name], to operate my account number xxxxxxxxx on my behalf,

- for example.

But the question of her competence, and the stage of her dementia, really does matter ethically as well as legally.

Don't talk to the administrator, make an appointment to speak to your mother's doctor either in person or on the phone. You need to get this situation nailed down. Is she competent or isn't she? Your wanting to take the burden off her hands, protect her possessions and keep the RM company at bay does NOT make it okay to go right ahead without being sure of this point.

How are they treating her anxiety, Hanging, which has been over the top for a long time? Have you been told by her doctors not to give her bad or worrying news, that it might exacerbate her condition? Or is this a leftover fear from childhood "don't bother me with the truth, if you do, I might have a heart attack and die and then where would YOU be?"

I know a bit about this sort of manipulation as it was a frequent feature of my childhood, and I suspect, many others. It's a method of controlling children's behavior.

Don't fall for it.

Talk directly to the doctor about whether your mom is incompetent or not. Talk to her/him about how to treat mom's anxiety and other mental illnesses. And about how you can discuss her business affairs with her.

Get a geriatric psychiatrist involved if necessary. Most NH/LTC facilities have someone, if not on staff, then someone who visits frequently.

Igloo572...
What does that mean (my mom having to “spend down” any money she gets from RM?
How & what does she spend it on?

“ Her income will now be under Medicaid LTC rules. If she should actually get $ from the RM once property sells, it all will become a spend down till she is once again “at need” for Medicaid. “

Had 2 different rehabbers come out to give a a buying price on mom’s house & both came way under what is owed, so I’m afraid I’m going to have to walk away & give them the house in lieu of deed (whatever the Hell) that means.
In the meantime my cousin advised me to have an estate sale to get as much $ out of all the stuff my mom has minus any personal things that I’m trying to get together & bring to my apartment.
Thing is I can’t take much cuz I don’t have the room.
Right now all I have been taking are family photos, & momentos.
I’m also hearing from my cousin that my mom will have to sign any papers or documents for this to happen so eventually I’m going to have to tell her what’s going on & the house is being sold.
I pray she doesn’t have a stroke or heart attack right there on the spot when she hears it..
I know my mom pretty well & this might just about kill her.
I’m going to blame the RM co & the nursing home if that happens because they are making it impossible for me to represent my mom in this & im trying to do it so that she doesn’t find out (because of all the stress, I’m almost positive it’s not going to end well).. but the doctor said w/her dementia starting within  a few months, she may not remember too much anyway..this really sucks

First, I’m glad the situation changed from what it was before. I understand it’s very stressful but seems more manageable and more reasonable now that she’s not at home and you both aren’t running around an unhealthy circle.

Second, your answer seems to dismiss an important point. Is your mother really unable to make her own decisions? Having dementia does not necessarily equates that. It is crucial to establish that. Save yourself a lot of problems, establish your mom’s competency.

Third, if she is competent she needs to decide, with you, to sell her house and what to do with her finances. If you tell any competent person..with dementia but competent, that you’re selling her house, doing an state sale, etc, etc..that’s enough to make someone sick, and to think you’re taking advantage of her absence. Do things right, so you don’t find yourself in deeper problems later on.

To underline what Rosses just said:

If your mother is competent, you CANNOT sell her house without her informed consent. Ask the NH if they can recommend a financial adviser who can go through the paperwork with both of you in a calm, professional way.

If your mother is not competent, you can use your POA to make decisions on her behalf and there will be need to distress her with detailed explanations.

You MUST get this point resolved first.

When property is sold, the RM holder gets paid first as it’s a secured loan.
If the property should actually sell for way beyond the RM loan, fees and whatever other costs RM put atop the loan..... if so and there’s $ back to your mom, the $ is income for the month of closing and then an asset for any months afterwards. If it’s more than 2k, it will take her over LTC Medicaid asset limits and she will have to spend-down the $ on her care before she will be eligible for Medicaid. Which means she first & foremost private pays for her stay at the nursing home.

Only when she has spent down and is “at need” financially again (basically impoverished) will she be re-eligible for Medicaid.

Property sale will be recorded to the penny. State will know exact amount.

Rosses003...said

“Third, if she is competent she needs to decide, with you, to sell her house and what to do with her finances. If you tell any competent person..with dementia but competent, that you’re selling her house, doing an state sale, etc, etc..that’s enough to make someone sick, and to think you’re taking advantage of her absence. Do things right, so you don’t find yourself in deeper problems later on.”

How can I be taking advantage of my mom’s absence by trying to sell her home??

Once I tell the RM co that she’s no longer living in the house they’re gonna call in the loan right??
So her house WILL need to be sold.
I’m not doing anything or taking advantage of anyone.
I’m just trying to avoid having my mom get the stark truth that SHE No LONGER has a home to go back to.
Then going forward, the NH IS her home from now on.
Knowing that, realizing that, after my mom MADE ME PROMISE to never put her in a NH may just about kill her.
Wanting to spare my mom that anguish is NOT doing anything shady or whatever, it’s called protecting her.
Yes, she has dementia.
There are times when what she says makes no sense.
She sees our old dog who died over 40 yes ago walking at the foot of her bed like it’s really there.
Then they’re are times when she is making sense.
She’s goes up & down.
Has crying jags like a toddler when she doesn’t get something she wants, etc.
But all in all she WILL know that the sale of her house is in reality going to be the beginning of the end for her in every way.
Then when she finds out Medicaid has taken her SS every month leaving her w/only $30, that’s another stab in the chest.
I’ve been going thru her bedroom dressers & my God all the stuff she has saved, torn articles from magazines, newspaper clippings, old/paid statements of past bills paid from 1993.
So much crap that I have to read & determine what to keep & what to toss out.
I’ve started in her room last Sunday & it’s now Wed & I’m not even half way done..
I don’t know how long it’s going to take me to go thru the whole house but I’m thinking when I finally do have everything of sentimental value out, then that’s when I will get my courage up to tell her that we have to notify the RM co & they’re  going to say they loan needs to be paid within 2-3 months, I don’t remember what the guy said as far as how long she’ll have to pay it but what’s gonna happen knowing my mother is that when I tell her that, she’s gonna say “why are you telling them that I’m not living there anymore when I’M GOING BACK AS SOON AS I FINISH MY REHAB???

THAT’S gonna be the main question that she’ll want an answer to & the only answer I can give her when she asks that is “no mom, according to the doctor here, you can’t go back home because you’ll be alone & wont have the level of care you need now”...

Oh God I can just see her reaction to that now..

She has asthma & I truly believe it’s gonna trigger her to have an attack.

I know I can’t avoid actually TELLING her what’s going on.. it’s just my fear is so great that when I DO tell her, it’s not going to end well, so I’m hoping to avoid it all together.
I love my mom, even though her being sick and being the only child w/no help having to do everything for her has made me a nervous wreck..
But what’s expected of me in the near future is something I am having extreme difficulty with..
And God forgive me but I would much rather God take her before I have to tell her then having to live w/the idea that I CAUSED her to die because of this whole ordeal..

Hanging, I surely feel bad for you, but you don't appear to be taking in what ANYone here is telling you.

No one is accusing you of fraud.

If you are worried about talking to your mother about selling her home, please talk to the medical professionals at the SNF and/or the social worker about the best way to approach this task.

Is it appropriate to look into Hospice at this point? That would provide you with an additional level of support.

Hangingon, are you intentionally ignoring the question of your mother's competence?

If your mother is competent, you have to give her the information. She makes the decisions.

If your mother is not competent, you can act for her without her permission and you need share with her only information that you believe she can process easily.

Until you have sorted out this one key point, you cannot make progress on anything.

Stop visualising your mother's reaction, stop imagining the worst, stop reading old newspapers. Get the competence issue determined first. If you don't know how, get advice from your mother's social worker or doctor.

Your fear is indeed very great, and please don't think we don't understand how horrible what you're going through is. What everyone's trying to tell you is that there will be ways forward to the situation you want: your mother's house efficiently cleared, the RM squared away, your mother safe and well cared for, you armed with strategies and support to help you deal with her determination to "go home."

Hanging,

I understand that when one is overwhelmed sometimes what is said is read differently than what it is intended. What I said is that I truly believe (I know!) you really need to get to a clear determination about your mom’s ability to make decisions, and not as in your assumption, but as in a medical statement.

I said that “if you tell any competent person that you are selling their house, doing an state sale, etc, that is enough to make someone sick and give the impression you’re talking advantage of her absence”. What that part means, “taking advantage of her absence” is that as you’ve clearly stated that your mom does not want to do anything you are doing for her. So, if you tell her all you are doing, and IF she is competent, she might think you’re taking advantage of her not being there to do what you think is right and not what she wants. That is what taking advantage of her absence meant.

But I fully understand you are trying to protect your mother and I also understand completely it is a giant task for one person and I’m by no means implying that you want to benefit financially through all you’re planning to do and doing. All I’m saying is this: In order to make decisions for a person, you either need to have their permission (POA) or something that declares them not capable of making their own decisions. 

In the other thread you had, if I’m not confused and you are the same person, I was the one that told you that I thought you really needed to take control of your life & of the situation. Maybe sounded harsh, but it was absolutely well intended, and necessary. Well, here I’m again, trying to advise you to take control of the situation, which means, do things in order and follow priorities.

Like Countrymouse said, stop thinking about the ‘what ifs’, and trying to predict things that you don’t know will happen. You actually have available the guidance and help of people that can assist you with the how to tell your mom what is being done problem. Stop wasting time on things that are not as important as to get clarity about your mom’s situation from a practical standpoint. Doing first what needs to be done first, will make the rest of steps simpler and will save you a lot of headache. Hope this makes sense, and I truly hope this process is manageable for you. Take one day at a time Hanging and remember to establish priorities everyday and also (and first) in the big picture.

She needs to be professionally evaluated as to her competency. Her competency level is not yours to determine. That is is the responsibility of a medical professional.

I’ve had enough.
I’m not dealing w/the house, the rm co, the bills that are due, my mom’s bank, none of that.
Whatever happens, happens.

HangingOn, I've just read or skimmed through most of the posts, and I do agree that the underlying legal issues haven't been addressed.

But "giving up" doesn't seem characteristic of your true intents either. You were very concerned, now you're walking away from the situation.

There is a middle course, you know that, don't you? If you're confused by the advice on legal capacity to undertake what you planned, just say so and it will be explained.

No one's trying to unsettle you or frighten you. As I read the posts, they're cautionary. If you proceeded to assume responsibility for taking action on the RM, you would find you didn't have the authority to, and might not be able to reach any agreement. Or, the legal implications might later undo all the planning you've done if authority was lacking. RM people are going to exploit and get what they can, and if you're a casualty b/c you lacked legal authority, they'll exploit it.

Just step back, take a break, and revisit the issue of the legal issues when you feel you're up to it. And ask questions if you don't understand. The advice you've been given is very sensible and cautionary, and those who wrote it are trying to prevent you from getting in a situation in which you have no legal authority to do anything you're contemplating.

Garden Artist I don’t have any $ to pay an attorney for advise or to tell me what needs to be done.
Don’t have money to pay for my mom to even be cremated let alone pay for her burial in the crypt w/my sister.
I’m selling items for the house to pay my bills. Because  haven’t been able to drive UBER, I’m too damn nervous.

I’ve been getting chest pains this last month & my bp is high.
I visit my mom every other day at the NH & have to lie to her every time when she says “any mail come today?, put this in the freezer, I’ll eat it when I go home”,,
I CANNOT TELL HER SHES NOT GOING HOME WHEN EVERYDAY SHE SAYS “DONT LET ME DIE HERE PLEASE”!!!
I have to step back from all this because I don’t wanna get a heart attack which I can from the stress.

So, tell us why you can't, as poa, draw money from the RM to go to an Eldercare attorney to get this sorted? Thats what im not understanding, Hanging.

" Mom, we need to call the RM company together because I need to consult a lawyer about how to best handle your financials right now". Would that be a problem?

A few questions Hanging:

A- Are you in fact your mother’s POA? I’m asking because I’m not sure.

B- Have you tried again, or better, have you obtained a clear medical statement where it is established that your mom is not able to make her own decisions? Again, this is critical.

C- Have you applied for Unemployment?

D- Have you tried calling the HUD’s housing counselor referral line at (800) 569-4287 or reading information on the HUD's counselor search page. This is free.

E- You’re probably aware that you have 12 months before your mom’s loan becomes due, right? Why are you talking to the lender now? Use all the time you have the right to use!

And have you read the RM document fully and in detail? Use all included in it to your advantage!

F- What are exactly your mom’s sources of income?
If your mom owes credit cards for example, you, as her POA can call the bank and tell them the situation. They will very likely work out a payment plan without interests, as they want to recuperate some money..better than getting nothing. If you’re clear as to what your mom’s income is, you can probably get on an schedule to pay all her debt.

As of housing, right now you have two houses in your hands, your mom’s and yours, and you are not working. Plus I recall you’ve your car payments. I forgot what you said the first time about not being able to leave your home. But I’d be thinking about moving to your mom’s house. You obviously need to cut costs wherever you can.

Lastly, and this is a hard question, do you know what’s your mom’s life expectancy? I know she has cancer. What do doctors say? You need to know this so you can plan better. If you’ve trouble facing the situation now, you’ll have more trouble once you’re facing your mom’s hardest times. So, plan now that your head is clearer.

Every problem has a solution Hanging, every problem does, you know this. Sometimes we are too overwhelmed to see the options, but the options are there. Of course something has to give, figure out what that is.

Take a deep breath, and one day at a time. But remember it is never wise to let life happen to you, seat down, write down all parts of the problem, and focus on finding solutions for each area. You will see how some things start clearing out!

Hangingon - I can see you are so overwhelmed with everything.

You do have A LOT on your plate: your mom, RM, legal issues, POA, your job, your health, NH, money, cleaning out the house, selling things. etc. OMG - anyone would be overwhelmed.

Please take a breather. Step back. Everything can wait a while.

First thing first. Your health. Do what you need to do or not do so that you can be calm and yourself again. If you fall sick, then what. I recommend yoga, meditation, walking, sleeping, or listening to music, or anything else that will help you relax.

When you're feeling better, then you can see to your mom's needs. It seems that she can use some (more) meds to calm her down. You know your mom best and you can advocate for her needs.

As for your mom's house, if the value is really less than the amount owed, then it is a moot point to spin your tail and worry yourself sick. That said, I think the rehabbers probably gave you low ball figures. A more reliable source might be a real estate agent. He/she can run some comps (comparable sales) in your neighborhood and can tell you what similiar houses near by are selling for. The agent should not charge for this service. You don't want an appraisal because that would cost money.

One thing at a time. One day at a time. You have a lot of good advice here from everyone. When you're ready, you can reread the posts with a clearer head.

(((Hugs)))

Hi Hangingon,

I agree with Rosses003 and polarbear -- I think it's a good idea to take a step back for a little bit and just take a breather.

It is so hard to absorb information coming from all directions, esp. when you are super stressed. It's also really hard to make good decisions for yourself when you have that much anxiety and are exhausted. Try to get yourself calmed down to the point where you can take a step back and think about things without sending yourself into panic-mode.

A book that might help is "Hope and Help for Your Nerves" by Dr. Claire Weeks. It's an older book but I believe it's still in print. It's low-key, easy to read, and I've found it helpful in the past. There are a ton of good books on managing anxiety and also CDs you can get from the library (or even youtube videos) for relaxation. Hopefully the weather is getting better to get outside and get a little fresh air. Those things will not fix your problems but they might allow you to catch your breath and give you a little space to prioritize what you can deal with.

There are people who post regularly on here who have big families, financial security, and much more run-of-the-mill problems and they still freak out. My grandpa was poor but he did not have the health issues your mom has and was relatively easy-going, but it was still overwhelming and depressing dealing with issues that arose. Do not feel bad for feeling overwhelmed and having a lot of conflicted feelings. You are handling things a lot better than you think, and have endured more than many of would without having a breakdown. You will be ok, but don't underestimate what you've been through. You've done so much to try to respect your mom's choices while coping with the difficult reality of the situation. That can actually be very traumatic and it does take a lot of introspection and emotional work sometimes to be able to focus on your own priorities and well-being again.

I'm really glad your cousin was there to talk with you and help sort through things! I hope you are doing ok.

“BarbBrooklyn
2 days ago
So, tell us why you can't, as poa, draw money from the RM to go to an Eldercare attorney to get this sorted? Thats what im not understanding, Hanging. “.

I have the document from my mom’s will that says I’m her POA, but that’s not enough for the RM people.
They said my mom didn’t put me on as POA when she signed on the loan in 1998 so in order for them to deal w/me they said they need those 4 things I posted earlier (copy of my driver’s license, letter from a doctor saying my mom’s not able to make decisions, etc) but since the NH WILL NOT provide a doctors letter I can’t get one.
So no go w/the RM.
On top of that, if the only other option w/the RM is for them to speak directly to my mom, & she would verbally give me as POA, then I’d have to tell her what’s going on w/having to sell her house & that’s something I’m trying to AVOID because she is NOT going to take that well at all.
I don’t care if you all think I “shouldn’t worry about what COULD happen”, I don’t want anymore guilt in dealing w/this whole thing & if my mom should die (sooner) from having a stroke or heart attack or whatever the HELL could kill her from hearing she’s not gonna have a home to go back to, I CANT DEAL WITH THAT.

Rosses003 I’ll try to answer your questions here.

A. Yes, I am my mom’s POA. I have the document, made a copy & had to submit to the NH when she was being admitted for rehab.

B. NH will NOT give me a doctors letter saying anything.
They said “we don’t do that”. The ONLY letter they would give would be a note on their letterhead that states they are in compliance w/MEDICAID, and taking my mom’s SS income every month as her payment for being there, she gets to keep $30 a month as her own.

C. No I can’t collect unemployment because I’m self employed.

E. I’m not sure how long the RM gives for the loan to be paid back, some say 3 months, others say 1 year. I have the agreement but it doesn’t specify that anywhere, or I’m just  to damn tired or stupid to re read it.

My mom’s ONLY income is/was her Social Security & her SSI.
Which she no longer gets because she’s in the NH.
So they stop the SSI, & take all but $30 of her SS EVERY MONTH.
So when her bills come due this month, her phone, the electric, the gas, homeowners insurance, etc there will be no money in her account to pay them..
Eventually they will just cut off the electric & water, the homeowners insurance  gets auto deducted from my mom’s checking, she set that up years ago but when they deduct it on the 25th, it’s not gonna go thru.
It’s gonna be NSF then wtf will happen??
I’ll have to call them & tell them to cancel the policy???
They might say we can’t deal with you, YOUR MOM has to authorize that..
It’s just one thing after another..
I’m so damn tired of all this.

Hangingon -

The house and the RM are a major source of stress for you. Just walk away and don't tell your mom anything you don't think she can handle. Let the bank take over and deal with it. They can sell it and pay themselves back. If they sell it for more than the loan and fees, they will send your mother the balance. Others here can advise you on what to do with that money if and when it comes.

In the meantime, take what you can, and sell the rest. There are people who will come and buy everything for one low price. You will not get as much money but you save a lot of time and stress.

Take care of yourself. Try to not worry.

Hanging, I'm sorry if my answer caused you stress. It seemed to me that you and mom could call RM company, discuss that you could draw RM monies to pay her bills while she's in rehab, and to get with an eldercare attorney to sort the rest out.

Once you have an attorney for mom, s/he would deal with and about getting letter of incompetence. I was thinking of this as a two part process. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

But as others have suggested, you could just walk away from the whole house debacle and focus on mom.