I think it’s irresponsible to pretend we can “diagnose” people. That’s what psychologists do. But I’ve read about narcissists
extensively, mostly trying to at last, problem-solve regarding issues with mom. If I can get a “label”, then I can look at that body of research and learn how to deal with her, but not diagnose her.
I was fortunate to find a book: Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay Gibson. Absolutely life-changing for me, which described those who were also described elsewhere as a narcissist”. But there was no uttering of the term in this book —which helped me to move ahead. I found it very hard to think of my precious mother as a narcissist. Of course, “narcissism” exists on a spectrum, from mild behaviors to intense behaviors, much like autism exists on a spectrum.
I learned that NPD ( Narcissistic Personality Disorder) is a mental illness, whereas, narcissistic TRAITS describe similar BEHAVIORS, but are not necessarily the disorder. Again, the behaviors exist on a spectrum. Example, I might have depressive symptoms now and then, but that doesn’t mean I have a Major Depressive Disorder, or, I might have anxiety symptoms, but that doesn’t mean I have an Anxiety Disorder.
As I understand, one is more “built into the hardware”, the other may be more situational or transient.
My mom was never very mean or nasty to us 4 kids as we grew up. Dad was, and he has passed. But mom now has gotten so self-centered, has low empathy, never asks about anyone else, always draws attention back to herself, doesn’t care about anything outside of her small world, and really seems to only care about the attention she gets. This started many years ago, but it sounds like a narc.
Does that make her a narc? Was she always a narc? I will never know. Some of her behaviors these last years seem like dementia. Not sure. It’s hard to be sure. I just know that they’re hard to take. She always seemed emotionally immature. She married young and had 4 kids before she was 24! I functioned as her “helper” my whole life.
Things changed, after she re-married after 25 yrs. with dad. At last, she had everything she ever wanted with a loving husband who wanted her to be happy. (I had prayed for this).
But, it changed her.
So, it goes, I guess, but she became so “into” material things, that her loveliness disappeared. She was all about obtaining possessions and such. We were happy for her. But, you know, it corrupted her. It became difficult to relate to her unless we talked about her possessions, acquisitions, or her interests.
When I visited, sometimes I went to bed and cried because she never once asked about me or my life.
And she became extremely controlling. She always was, to a certain extent, but it got so bad she was offensive to visitors’ and I recall a son-in-law actually asking her to stop micro-managing while he and I were preparing dinner. She never appeared to get it that she had just been shut down. (No shame).
Well, I don’t know what this all adds up to, but I sure wanted to write it. Also, I did want to write about the “Narc” topic. I think too many people are diagnosing when they should not be.
Selfishness looks bad no matter what form it takes. Doesn’t mean “narcissism”. I hope my points are well-taken.
When dealing a narcissist - when you start peeling back the layers you start to realize they have ALWAYS been the way they are - even if you didn't necessarily realize it at the time. But when you are dealing with a truly narcissistic personality I really do believe you know it. I say this because I know a lot of people with self-centered personality traits, selfish focus or narcissistic tendencies - but I only know ONE narcissist. And the difference is abundantly clear.
The people who have the personality traits - they also have other traits - they have the ability to sympathize and empathize, they can show love, they can show worry and concern and see the needs of others and actually want to help them. They can do things for the good of others and don't always focus only on themselves. EVERYONE has some selfishness in them at some point.
But a true narcissist - CAN'T. They can't sympathize or empathize. They can only see their own needs. Everyone else was put here to provide for their needs. They do not even recognize that others HAVE needs. They may have moments of asking about others but they will always turn the conversation back to themselves. When they appear to want to provide something for you the root of the reason is for themselves.
As we age our circle shrinks. For the vast majority of people as the circle shrinks I think it is natural to get more self focused and to expect people to ask about them. They are focusing all of their energy on getting through each day. In their minds they should focus on themselves.
But for the narcissist - their circle has shrunk and they are PANICKING! How are they going to get their narcissistic supply filled without anyone to do it. NOONE is calling them now, no one is falling for their charm people aren't fawning all over them because their needs are demanding now. Aging narcs get ANGRY and mean. They have no control over their lives. They have groomed their family to serve their every need and in many cases their family is tired and starting to realize they don't want be bullied anymore and have families of their own and push back and the narc doesn't know how to handle this. They are like cornered injured animals.
Aging narcs get worse as their supply lines dwindle.
It can be confusing to differentiate but honestly the big difference is if they have always been like this vs if it is new, and how deep it goes. Because a true narcissist lives in their own reality and creates their own narrative. The one narcissist that I have in my life, honestly I can't grasp his reality - it has always been about him and only him - EVERYONE was put here on earth to see to his needs, and he tells terrible stories to anyone who will listen about the people who take care of him (US) luckily no one believes him because he has spun so many far fetched tales and alienated so many people over the years that the only people he sees now are the family, doctors and in home health aides - he has alienated all of his friends and most of his family.
But true narcissism is very different from being selfish which I think all of us have in us at some point.
I also agree that Dementia increases the traits across the board - and with narcissism it makes Dementia very hard to separate because a lot of the narcissistic traits LOOK like Dementia and vice versa because of the reality he has created for himself and the absolute refusal to live in actual reality. After being around an actual narcissist for so many years, I'm hesitant to use the term lightly.
You can look at clusters of behaviors, and reading about the label being pinned onto it can be helpful. My understanding is that dementia is still diagnosed by behavior, at least until autopsy stage. Dementia also seems to involve self-centered behavior, which can also be controlling (only I matter). The labels can still be short cuts to relating to other people’s experience, and the ways they have tried to cope.
So your issue is not to find the right label, but to look for experience that rings bells with you. It just may help you deal with her behavior, without going to bed in tears. Best wishes, Margaret.
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents was also a game changer for me. I have read, re-read and re-read again. In chapter 8, the case study of "Annie" is the one I most closely identify with.
My mom has always been rather controlling. Used the silent treatment on us when she wasn't happy - which was often. Classically martyr-type. However, I feel like for most of my adult life, things were pretty smooth with a few hiccups here and there.
In the past 5 years or so, it's been REALLY hard. She is bossy, opinionated, critical, uncaring, condescending and devaluing. She has displayed obvious jealousy. Lots of guilt trips. What has changed? 2 of her best friends died. My dad requires a lot more care and can't help like he used to. Because of her martyr syndrome, she will complain about how tired she is but refuses to get help. Refuses to go to a caregiver support group. Refuses to get any type of counseling. Refuses somebody to come just for 3 hours a week, to clean bathrooms or change sheets. When I offered to cook some freezer meals, she whipped open her freezer with disgust to show me neat little rows of prepared food. She is very organized. She's an energizer bunny. Just an angry energizer bunny who is very resentful when I can't read her mind. And now, because I moved away for my husband's job, she thinks I'm some kind of villain so she is ghosting me.
If you would have asked me if my mom was a narcissist, I would have told you "NO WAY"... but lately, she is definitely displaying narcissist-type behaviors. Also there are OVERT narcissist behaviors and COVERT behaviors - my mom definiteIy ticks a lot of the covert narc boxes. don't know if it's old age, I don't know if it's depression, I don't know because she is so stubborn and unwilling to consider changing things up. If it isn't narcissism, it's definitely toxic.
You have just described someone suffering from a Dementia. You mention in your profile that you feel she is in the early stage. Dementia seems to heighten certain traits people have. When I asked Mom's Neurologist "Does Dementia change people's personalities" His answer was "If they were nice before, they will be nice after. If they were mean before, they will be mean after. If they were nice before but mean after, they were really mean before just able to cover it up."
I would say my MIL was passive-aggressive. Her boys learned this early on I think and worked around it. She came off as sweet but if she didn't get what she wanted she could get nasty and it usually was with the DILs. There came a time when she was going to need to live with one of her sons. I prayed it would not be us. I could just see what would happen. Our lives would not have been our own. For ages she tried to get my DH to move near her. He never said no but he never said yes. She got me on the phone one day telling me the house in back of her was 4 sale. Told her then I would not be moving to Fla. That now Mom was a widow and had my disabled nephew living with her, I would not move. Mom was in her 80s and had her friends and Church and I would not move her. My MILs response was " We all have to compromise". Yeah, everyone but her.
MIL had a bad UTI which she went to the hospital for. She went to rehab but would not do the exercises to strengthen her. Someone told her she was being transferred to a rehab in another State to be near the son who had POA. Then, she would have to decide which son she wanted to live near or with. She never got along with that DIL so the last thing she was going to do was live with her. She was not giving up her home at 91. So, she stopped eating and acted the invalid. She willed herself to die and she did. So we will never know how things would have worked out.
And I just hate how I am starting to lose my patience with her. As the caregiving gets more difficult to tolerate with each passing week, I am so afraid this experience has changed me in a negative way and that it will be permanent. It might be.
I do realize I need to do something about that soon but I find I am unable to think of placing her for the present. She would hate that and I am not ready for that either. I am repeating to myself, “. Just one more winter, then spring.”
I seem to need a lot of convincing! No, I need to feel it in my gut that, ok, now it’s time. I do try not to set myself up for feeling guilty because I am very susceptible! (Well trained!)
Thanks for your help, JoAnn.
Some 'funny' is actually a bit out there, eccentric but tolerable, even loveable. Other 'funny' is damaging & hurtful.
While I find understanding WHY people act they way they do interesting, it doesn't really enhance my patience to deal with it, or tolerance to put up with rubbish.
Has anyone had success or studied 'Grey Rock Lite'? (The Grey Rock for people you just can't actually get distance from).
I'd imagine it can't be good for health to live in that mode long-term.