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My Dad passed 6 wks ago. Legend. Miss him so. My Mom was Alcoholic from when I was 10 to 18 yrs old. Then she went in & out of a Manic phase for years on end. Sheer HELL. Not Depression. This showed up at my long ago wedding ...held firm on boundaries when my 1st child was born. Didn't let her see my Daughter 'til she was 5 mos old, until she came out of a Manic phase.. Last couple decades...the NPD & Borderline presented. She is 78. Every time I go to see her, every 6 days (2 hr drive) she wears me down: yelling, slamming her hand on her kitchen table, screams for me to not empty her trash (which I do), empty her dishwasher..load the few dishes in the sink.. She is 1 step down from being a hoarder. Soooo stressful for me. I am not a fighter. I take her to run a few errands, listen to illogical conversation..full of negativity & criticism. She does have intelligence & a wit about her, but mostly irritates me because of all the rest I have to endure. I work to be loving. *Question (and it's rhetoric)..I continue to respond with "I will be here to help you, but we will not be living together. I need to focus on career, my Kids, future Grandkids...life with them.. I want more travel, etc.. I am 58 & very active. She yells at me for being active... "you move too fast." I sit and play board games with her...and try my best to be loving as I can...but I can hardly wait to get in the car to drive home... Game plan is to when she needs it down the road bring in home care... I cannot/will not ever live with her. It would kill me.. Yet she continues to mention every visit "in time you can live here or I can live with you." I correct her rapid fast and say "not going to happen, but you will be taken care of & all will work out fine." I sound heartless..maybe? But I can't do it. I cannot and will not sacrifice my mental health and the rest of my life to this. She screams if I try to straighten anything.. Another Sibling is managing finances, which is FAB..and we all work well together behind the scenes.. But I am so tired of her repeating this.. Purposefully I do not stay over or the reverse. I have read too many of your personal stories. It would honestly destroy me to do more than I am... S.O.S. Appreciate your advice on how to word without being too harsh. I may have to repeat every visit but I will if need be... She is in gated community... so this is great... And a neighbor checks on her daily. I call twice a day.... I got back home 24 hrs ago but takes me days to come out of it...and then I am right back there...again.. PS Def some early onset dementia there too...PPS I have heard some say "I will care for you, but I have to do what is best for me too." Does that work? UGHHHH.

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If what you want is for your mother to eradicate and cease to mention her fantasy that one day she will be living with her daughter 24/7, no it won't work. Nothing will work. And arguably, why should your mother never again say that this is what she (thinks!) she would like? Gotta have a dream.

It's a fantasy. It isn't going to happen, and can't happen without your active agreement. Why does this push such a button with you? (question for you to reflect on rather than necessarily answer!)

How to answer? - don't! This is the tooth fairy. The Santa Claus. The Great Pumpkin. Why tread on her dreams? Mind, you don't *agree* either. You could just say "nope! :)" and move the subject along.

I think you're visiting your mother too much and doing too much for her, by the way, but that's a different matter.
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eat-pray-love Feb 2022
Creative response. ;-) I appreciate it. I think it's OBVI why it pushes buttons with me. I wish she would get it & move forward. But I see what you are saying. Also, she can't see it from my perspective, care about what is best for me & my Kids, future Grandkids. This is classic NPD. She binge watches TV & reads. Not physically active. Not a walker. No social life. My Dad was the complete opposite... He was a Trooper. He would back my perspective as do all the siblings.. I just have been thru so much with her. It's exhausting to think how she is at it...the exhausting behaviors.. I so admire elderly who have a life: social life-walk-hobbies..great outlook..
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So a brother has POA. You drive 2 hrs. every 6 days to see her. What do your siblings do? Why is it you that your mother thinks will take care of her and either live with you or vice versa?

CM says "I think you're visiting your mother too much and doing too much for her, by the way,"

I agree! Are your siblings calling her twice a day? If it's only you doing things for her and calling her, why is that?

She is just one medical event away from needing more care. What's the plan for when that happens? (Hint -- YOU are going to be the plan if there is no plan.)
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eat-pray-love Feb 2022
So, my Sister lives in AZ. Not real close to her. The other 3 are a Stepsister& 2 Stepsisters. She has alienated everyone. They don't want to keep tight with her. It's only me & 1 neighbor phoning. I more than understand & appreciate my Stepbro having POA. Some bills are on Autopay. My Mom is a pain to deal with. They have their own Mom to look after. We promised my Dad (Stepdad, but my true Father since I was 4) that we would work together as team. It goes well. I will not live with her. NPD. Criticizes everyone. Negative beyond. Chain smokes cigars (the fat ones). I thank you for understanding & your comments are very helpful. I enjoy the role of helping a person feel better/get well... But, totally diff sitch w/my Mom. I call twice a day to make sure she got thru the day: eating...etc. We will bring in Caregivers when the time comes: when she can't go up & down the stairs to her kitchen-can't drive to the store-prepare meals... BTW: she couldn't allow my Stepdad to pass at home. She couldn't see him the last 2 mos of his life. We tried Caregivers at home for him but she got in the way... It has been sheer HELL since Aug..and since he passed 6 wks ago. She will be fine financially but objective is to not hire Caregivers until necessary.. I will rinse & repeat with the "I will be here to see you are OK, but we will not be living together."
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EPL, you have done an excellent job of establishing the boundary of what you are willing to do as far as her residential situation. Good for you!

Now, are you happy with the amount of time you spend with mom? Perhaps you need to back it off a notch? Visit once every two weeks or once a month? Let mom know that you cannot take the stress of weekly visits and that you will find her a companion to take your place because you need to take care of you too.

You most likely will not be able to get her to drop the topic of the two of you living together.
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Why does the topic of living together push your buttons.. hmm.

Just a suspicion... but is it because even though you are saying & typing "No, not gunna happen" deep deep down somewhere a teeny bit of yourself thinks you kinda should? Coz you really should help her, after all, she's family right?

If that is the case, reach down to that little thought & explain to it clearly. You CAN help her. But in OTHER ways as living together will not bring greater health or happiness to either of you.

Then practice your replies until your find something that feel natural. Deflect, truth, humour, crazy. Trot it out everytime she brings it up.

Live together?

You & me? Gosh no. How funny!

Nope. That's not going to happen. But I WILL help you find a nice home.

Maybe we will build an enormous cottage, in the mountains, by the beach, with a hundred servants & a private cook. With a moat filled with dolphins. Imagine! Make it silly, have a laugh.

I think when elders start with the 'you'll live with me' it can be due to fear. Fear of being alone, or fear of their future.

So another idea would be to sooth the fear. Not by agreeing to her request to live together, but with something reassuring. Oh you'll be just fine. And if not, we'll face it together.
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CTTN55 Feb 2022
I think you are right that there is a teeny bit of the OP that thinks she should move in with or take in her mother. The bit that is driving the weekly visits and twice-daily phone calls. OP hasn't responded yet, but I wonder if the other sibs are as involved as she is. I also wonder what would OP's response be if the mother suddenly needed in-home assistance from a fall or other medical condition. Would she go a running because no one else will?
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I see Beatty's point. But you need to stick to your boundries. Mom may think if she says it enough, you'll will come to her way of thinking. Its wishful thinking on her part. Keep that boundary. You do not want to live with this woman and you have good reasons not to. What I would do next time she mentions living together is sit her down. Sit right in front of her and look her in the eye and firmly say "Mom there will be no living together and I have explained why that will never happen. First, it will not work. Second, as I have explained before, I have a career and children I want to enjoy. Caregiving is not in my future. I will do what I can for you but we will NEVER live together. So as of now, that subject is closed for discussion. And if its brought up again, I WILL leave." Do not back down then she knows she has you. There are many on this forum who moved in with parent or the parent moved in with them. Now they need the parent to leave and the parent won't.

There are options out there. Mom needs to get herself ready to take advantage of those options.
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Second time today I have suggested counseling. Sounds like you are saying the right things to me. Sounds like you and sibling are trying to be helpful. Think you could just use the reinforcement to hear that you ARE doing the right thing, and to keep your boundaries intact.
I think it would help you to learn that possibly you should be doing LESS rather than more lest you reinforce your Mom's dependency.
Choose a good counselor and get the support you need. It will be so much better than having us laypeople try to reassure you that you are right. Your Mom has spent a lifetime making you WRONG, so we would be up against a formidable foe. You are doing well in trying to protect yourself; get the reassurance you need from a professional.
You won't ever change Mom. I know you know that. She is a very flawed human being. Get the help you need. My heart goes out to you.
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Oh gosh, never say I will be here to help you. That wording can be interpreted to mean you will be there, like move in or move her in.

I have found with my mom, very similar history, that telling her I will make sure she gets the care she needs, whether in home help or a facility, has stopped the pressure to make me say yes to her plan.

I have been told I am selfish for putting my foot down and saying she cannot ever live with me and my husband. I don't care what others think of me, they don't deal with her and her attacks on me, they aren't the ones wiped out for days from a phone call, forget about a visit. So you do you and what helps you to be able to deal with her.

Personally, I think that she sees how invested in her you are and she thinks/believes she can wear you down to a yes. Creating boundaries, like cutting your phone calls down when she crosses boundaries, not visiting every week, tell her, mom I am going to not visit next week because you won't stop with the pressure of cohabitation. It's never going to happen and I am worn out with it. Tell her what her future options look like. Your actions really speak volumes and she is pushing you because it has worked for her.

Drawing boundaries and implementing them, is difficult but, the stress you have from her will put you in an early grave.

You matter, the family you created matters, your mom matters but, not at the expense of any one else.

Honestly, none of us have that right, to suck someone else's life to prop us up and us not have to be in difficult situations, like a facility or strangers in our home. Tell her when she is pushing and tell her the truth about her options. It doesn't have to be harsh, it can be told quietly and with love but, not with hesitation.

Best of luck finding a way to not give your mom so much head space and so much stress.
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eat-pray-love Feb 2022
This is GREAT. Exhale. I hear you. Must be careful with the wording. Last visit (every visit) she screamed at me for watering the plants on her patio. She began yelling & I stood up for myself. I am not a yeller but I held my ground and kept watering. I will NOT let her dictate my life anymore. I will help her but how it works best for me. Last weekend, Super Bowl Sunday I had talked to her twice. Then she called me last 5 minutes of the game. I was not about to pick up. She left a vm. I phoned her the next morning and told her no way was I going to talk during the game. Trust you me, I will stand up for myself. She won't ever succeed at wearing me down. She already impacted too much of my life, negatively. I have a responsibility to my Kids..and future G-Kids, etc. I hear you. And I take your words to heart. Thanks so much
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Personally, I feel like ALL of us daughters have it programmed into us that we 'should' take our mothers into our homes to live with us. Which is why it bothers us so much when they push our guilt buttons and ask us to take them in. We know it won't work out, we know it's a huge mistake, yet STILL it tugs at the heart strings to keep having to say NO and stick to our guns. It's designed to do this, too, b/c the manipulative techniques have been honed for decades. That's my opinion on the matter.

My mother has been living in AL and now Memory Care since 2014 (MC since 2019) and was on a kick for about a year where she was demanding to know why she couldn't come live in my house. She also got very angry with me, no matter what I said, saying that she KNEW I had plenty of room & that her wheelchair was 'no big deal' and that she was 'perfectly fine' and wouldn't require ANY help, in spite of the fact that she's fallen 95x to date. Her needs far outweigh my capabilities, so that's what I'd tell her every time she brought the subject up. That I'm only one human being and incapable of caring for her needs PROPERLY in my home, period. I love ya ma, but you are living where your care needs are seen to. You can't say the same to your mother b/c the situation is different, however.

In your case, you have to come up with a standard response that works for YOU. If that response is "I will care for you, but also have to do what's best for me", then use it. It doesn't really matter WHAT the response is, just that YOU feel comfortable with it b/c she won't buy it, one way or another, and will keep repeating herself over & again until you're drained. That's part of the early dementia cycle and part of the manipulation these women like to dish out. Tell her you love her but that you also need your privacy and your own space, but will do everything in your power to ensure she's safe & cared for. That's my suggestion. Then let it go. If you can't let it go sufficiently, then cut down your visits for a while b/c YOUR mental health matters TOO, not just hers.

I hope you can find peace with your decision here, my friend. It's hard, I know. Realize you're not 'wrong' here, you're just making a choice that suits you, and in the end, moving her in with you would be a mistake for BOTH OF YOU. I know b/c my grandmother lived with us growing up and it ruined my childhood. My mother martyred herself for no good reason; the two of them were oil & water. That's what made ME make the decision long ago to NEVER move my mother in with me. I've never regretted it. I lived the mistake years ago and vowed to never repeat it.

Best of luck!
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eat-pray-love Feb 2022
OMGGGG...such a wonderful info packed + heartfelt response! Thank you for sharing all re: your personal experiences/life & coming from an empathetic place. So many of you have done similarly. Really helps to read what you went thru, how it didn't work out with your G-Ma, and how you adhered to boundaries for your own self preservation. Well done! I am proud of YOU! I just copy & pasted some of what you wrote. If I need to quickly refer to script while I am with her...it's on my iPhone! It's necessary. I am not exaggerating-being melodramatic in any way. I know you all understand. Texted with my Sis in AZ today. She is in agreement and said our Mom is Bipolar 1, and completely crazy/unwell... My Sister said she isn't sad anymore over it all.. And we are both on the same page re: Boundaries. I do feel understood & supported.
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Your mother is a chronic mentally ill. Her condition (manic-depression) is incurable. You don't have to deal with a mentally ill person. It's up to you.
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eat-pray-love Feb 2022
Thank You.
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What you are doing now is already too much for you. One visit a week, and it “takes me days days to come out of it”. Phone calls every night and morning, so not even 3 days of peace. Your life is revolving around your mother. You say “I cannot and will not sacrifice my mental health and the rest of my life to this”, but that is what is happening already.

It’s time for a new ‘team talk’. You have to stop this. It will precipitate a change for the worse (which would come eventually anyway). The team needs a plan for the ‘worse’, and it needs to be implemented ASAP. It would be a good idea to involve the neighbor in the plan, because at present neighbor is actually part of the team (and may have it much easier than you do).

Don’t just ‘cope with mother’ while this is so dreadfully bad for you and for everyone else for whom you have other responsibilities.
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eat-pray-love Feb 2022
That just hit me... You are right. Exhale. I told my Mom last night I wouldn't be phoning her until after 3 PM today. I was showing property today (Realtor here). I phoned her right after & had her on speaker. I asked my Son in the background how many hrs of traffic he was caught in yesterday. Told her he had a long commute back from a mtg. She got mad & sad "Are you talking to him or to me? Don't call me if you are talking to 2 people at once." I told her I was involving her in our convo so she understood what his day was like yesterday. She said she had to go back to her book & hung up. My Son heard & remarked. Just such the NPD behavior.
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I just want to applaud you for successfully setting boundaries with Mom. Too many daughters of narcissists can't seem to do this, so it's nice to see a success story. Believe in those boundaries, and stick to them.
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eat-pray-love Feb 2022
You know what is wild to me is that as much as it hurts to hold my ground, I know I must & I will. This forum has really helped me through a lot of the past few mos. I copy & pasted some of the responses & re read them prior to seeing her. Empowered me. Thank you for your kind words.
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There’s always the saying that’s famous around here:

”No, I couldn’t POSSIBLY do that!”

Maybe with a great big laugh, for extra emphasis! 🤪
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eat-pray-love Feb 2022
Bahaha! Thx ;-)
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You are not heartless:)
For your own sake (and health) though, you may want to look at what is driving you.

I know I have said this on these boards before, but if you haven’t had the lifelong habit of talking to your mother twice a day (as grown ups), why are you doing it now? If someone is able to live alone, they are also capable of getting by without twice daily checking from anyone. If they can’t, they shouldn’t be living alone.

People usually feel like they have to step into this constant communication when parents age. Part of it is looking out for the elder, but often it feels good to be caring for the person who didn’t treat you well… until it doesn’t feel good and then you just feel stuck. Most adults don’t call the same person multiple times per day… unless that person brings you great joy.

It is the same with people who visit daily. It is so often guilt-driven, rather than joy-driven. And then they burnout (or have a stroke or whatever.)

From what you have said, I would CALL once a week and VISIT once every three to four weeks. (I’ll bet you don’t feel so heartless now in comparison to me, right? Lol.)

I am not trying to sound harsh to the aging either. If it works for you, keep doing it. But, that constant stress is so unhealthy for you both mentally and physically.

As for her complaining or commenting about moving in - ALWAYS turn it back to her. YOU have no reason to be put on the defensive in this situation. If she complains… “That’s a bummer. What are you going to do about that?” If she responds that she will move in with you, just laugh and change the subject. Do it every time.

Remember, she can’t just move in without your ok so this really ISN’T something to worry about. Don’t even let the conversation get started.

If she is hoardish/not clean, that is not something you can fix. Let it go. She yells at you for cleaning, so why are you doing it?

If you look at a lot of this logically and from the outside, it is clear you are letting some old patterns - and probably the desire for your mom’s love - drive your actions. Your heart and health are worth guarding, my dear. If you can’t see that right now, just trust this stranger on the internet;) You count.

There are some people who really are just ok with not bringing joy to anyone else. It is a hard realization, but that is a choice that they make. You have an equal choice not to let them vampire your life’s joy.

Stick with the group here if you need language and new thought paradigms. There are some oddballs, but many posters on this site have walked your road and have good advice. Take good care.
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eat-pray-love Feb 2022
Really appreciate your msg! Great counsel in there! Reason I call twice a day: It's me or Neighbor who checks in. That's her circle. She's never cared to have friends. But I hear you & thank you. I got into a pattern. I do feel better knowing she is up in the AM...and upstairs nighttime .. But I am checking in with myself. If I'm not feeling it because she was snarky earlier in the day...I skip the 2nd call. Bahaha: just reread the part where you said "I bet you don't feel so heartless in comparison to me." I like that.. Thank You re: being in control of the convo. I have been doing this every time & will continue to.
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I think you're doing a fantastic job! And I also think it's fine to perhaps go every other week and see how that goes. Please don't feel guilty. You're doing the best you can and I repeat - doing a fantastic job. Your responses are fine. I'm sure others will have some good ideas, too.
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eat-pray-love Feb 2022
Thank You. Tears are forming...but they stopped ;-) I just wish I could compartmentalize like a man. Bahaha. I'm getting better in some ways: switching up the times I call. Sometimes, I only call once a day.. If I don't feel like I am in the mood to call... I will wait some hrs or until the next morning.
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I wanted to say that I am so sorry for your loss.

May The Lord give you comfort, peace and wisdom to deal with this new season in your life.
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I tried to read all the responses and suggestions here but forgive me if I repeat anything others have said. I have gone through years of counseling not because I'm a navel gazed but because of the trauma/abuse inflicted by one of these mothers. There was the suicide of my brother and the attempted suicide by my father where I had to fight him for the gun so I don't use the word trauma Ightly. What I want to say to you is that you have trauma bond with your mother that needs to be cut. You have to understand that this is Stockholm Syndrome of the dysfunctional family. I'm sorry that your mother is ill but in a sense her illness has served her well as she has everyone around her walking on eggshells and basically begging permission to be her servant (she won't let you throw her trash out? Please mommy can I take your trash out?? See how ridiculous that is???) Do the bare minimum to keep her safe and SAVE YOURSELF!!! I stopped the bulls*** and maybe in another generation my descendants will be healthy and responsible for their own health. I'm sorry if I sound so harsh but I'm 60 years old and have finally realized how much of my life I have lost catering to her and I feel stupid for letting it go on for so long in the name of being a "good daughter".
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Sounds like you are doing great, in a difficult situation. Just keep repeating to your mother that you living with her, or her living with you, are not options. You don't have to give reasons (eg. your life, travel, grandchildren, etc...) And stick to it. Your mother is just trying to wear you down with repetition...a typical manipulation trick. As far as visits, sounds like once a week, with a two hour drive, is too much. Consider cutting back to a visit every two weeks; since you call her daily, that is more than enough 'checking in', and social time for her. You are not responsible for keeping her entertained and providing social outlets; that was and is always her own personal responsibility. If she gets lonely, that really isn't your concern. You are meeting her genuine needs: eg. shelter, safety, etc. You might want to consider discussing your need to limit face to face visits with your sibs, though, before you enact. You need your sibs to keep helping with this mother, and if you stop visiting as frequently, she may ramp up pressure on sibs. See what you and sibs can find agreeable, then enact.
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Visit every other week and call every other day. Do what is best for you. Avoid your mother's histrionics.
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Sadly some of us come from toxic home situations that we cannot totally escape. Remember that you are an adult and a survivor so you get to decide how far you will go to support a toxic parent. Living with your mother or her with you should not even be considered. It is not an option - THE END.

You are allowed to skip a visit if you are not up to it. You do not need to call twice a day if not available. You are allowed to hang up the phone if she gets nasty. You are allowed to tell her to stop yelling at you during your visit - frankly I would immediately leave. You should never feel guilty about saying NO to her. She has been this way for years and that will not change.

As others have mentioned - you and your siblings need to prepare a plan for when your mother needs more home care services. You should never be made to feel guilty about putting your health, mental sanity and your family before the demands of a toxic parent.
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Please consider attending Al-anon. I know of noplace else that can give you real guidance from those who know and understand.
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I used to clean up.
I was the help, or helping..
to prevent any change?
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