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"The situation in other words is abusive and unfair."
"I said to her that I loved her and my house was open to her and I would take care of her when she was broke and sick if need be, but I did not want to be involved anymore with financial planning because it was too stressful and it seemed to me I was going to be left holding the bag after my brother ran through all of her money anyway, so there was no point in providing window dressing for what was essentially a process that I was not a part of. This was not an attempt to gain more control of the finances, I just wanted out of the mess,"
As a psychologist, you should know how to report abuse!
Why not do what you said you wanted to do? Refuse to be involved in financial planning? If you insist that she is fully competent, then she has decided to give all of her assets to your brother.
(If it were me, I would not take her in or take care of her at any point. That job should go to the brother who is getting all of the assets!)
The poa's will help if it is what is termed a "standing" poa. That would give you power to control mom's finances. Course mom would have to agree to let go of controlling her accounts herself. That would put you in the position of standing up to bro. Is your mom afraid of him? Intimidated by him that would cause her to give him money just so he will leave her alone?
Thanks, those are good suggestions, I'm going to start working on a referral for a specialist in elder care and estate planning. Maybe APS will help, I will call them tomorrow.
Your mother is 88. I am delighted for her that she is mentally well, long may it continue. However, she is 88, and no matter how fit she is for her age that classifies her as an older adult and places her in the vulnerable category.
Moreover, resident with her son, DIL and granddaughter, she is highly dependent on their goodwill towards her - emotionally at least, arguably physically and mentally as well.
What they have done is systematically strip her of enormous sums of money. No doubt they have come to see this as compensation for the "imposition" of maintaining her within the household; but however understandable the germ of it, what has developed is quite extreme financial abuse. The shunning, the exclusion at certain times: these are also, surely, emotionally abusive at best.
You must get your mother out of there. Find a way, it is not beyond the wit of man. Locate a facility near you and move her in. She's competent, you don't need anyone's permission. And, of course, since he is blameless - h'm - your brother will be welcome to visit her there. She doesn't want to be a burden to him. Or come between him and his wife.
Come on! - I'm sure a psychologist can summon up plenty of sound arguments that will persuade her to leave?
I'm surprised that your brother in law is so sanguine about what has already taken place. I assume he is not a specialist in elder care or estate planning? But perhaps he has a colleague who is. I should ask him, if I were you, and consult that person as soon as possible. Meanwhile, you work for the county. Don't you ever talk to APS?
Thank you for the replies, questions and commentary are appreciated. My mother is fully competent, we are contemplating getting a durable powers of attorney agent status for myself, but have not yet entered into that arrangement with the lawyer. My mother says she is willing, and we will have a meeting with her lawyer this week concerning it.
What precipitated this change in her mind was that she went to live with my brother and his wife. She's given them large sums of money in the past, but since she went to live with them three months ago, she's given he and his wife most of her cash assets, about $300,000, and promised them the remaining cash, another hundred thousand dollars. My brother has also asked her for the deed to the townhouse she owns.
Presently, she gives him $2000 a month rent from the townhouse, and also pays tax on that income and the homeowners association fees, which he will not pay. The situation in other words is abusive and unfair. My mother has always been reluctant to reign in my brother’s excessive spending, or insist that he be put on a budget. He is underemployed, and just lost his job, and has a lifestyle that exceeds his income with luxury cars and a house in a neighborhood he can't afford.
My mother hid these gifts of cash to my brother from me; she has hidden most of the financial planning decisions concerning him, and the truth came out last week. I am supposed to share financial planning responsibility with my brother. At my mother's request we are co-executors on her trust. When she admitted giving him these assets, I said that I didn't want to be involved with the financial planning anymore. I said to her that I loved her and my house was open to her and I would take care of her when she was broke and sick if need be, but I did not want to be involved anymore with financial planning because it was too stressful and it seemed to me I was going to be left holding the bag after my brother ran through all of her money anyway, so there was no point in providing window dressing for what was essentially a process that I was not a part of. This was not an attempt to gain more control of the finances, I just wanted out of the mess, but at that point, my mother suggested I act as sole executor and also suggested the DPOA.
Everything I've read on the Internet indicates that the DPOA is useful when a person is not competent, but I'm not sure how it applies in this instance. My mother is 88, but fully competent to control her money, and if she wants to give my brother the deed to her townhouse and give him her remaining assets, I'm not sure how durable powers of attorney will help. I don't have the deed to her townhouse in my possession, the deed belongs to her alone.
My brother-in-law, who is a lawyer, seemed to think that durable powers of attorney would help. My brother-in-law says that sales of large assets will need to go through the agent (myself) and that it would be of help to act as a bottleneck for future giveaways.
So that's the situation. I appreciate the interest, and while I’m new to it to the forum, it’s see that it has a very supportive community of contributors. Thank you,
Tom
PS in answer to your question I do not get any money from my mother, I have not gotten money from her since I was in school 30 years ago. I don't know if she will ever need to qualify for Medicaid. It's one of those things I need to learn about. I work as a psychologist for Los Angeles County.
In answer to the question of what my brother provides, he provides a roof over my mother's head, but she lives like Cinderella among evil stepsisters. Her daughter in law and grand daughter don't talk to her, and have asked her to spend her weekends elsewhere as it is their time to spend together as a family. She has trouble walking and driving, and has no place to go (I work weekends) and appears depressed. She blames her daughter-in-law and granddaughter, but not my brother for this situation.
I agree with CTTN above, there will be major road blocks should your Mom need to apply for Medicaid later down the road, within the next 5 years. Then what would would Mom do, move in with your brother?
Unfortunately elders do not understand the cost factor as they age, and if they need a higher level of care. They assume their children will take care of them. So many quit their job thinking this would be short-term and 5 yeas later find themselves with a very low balance in their own retirement fund or nothing at all.
If brother wants to change the Deed to his name, then he would be in for Capital Gain taxes which goes all the way back to when Mom had bought the house., whenever brother wants to sell the townhouse. He probably didn't know about that
YIKES! In your profile, you say that you are caring for your mother. What do you do, and what does the $300,000 brother do for your mother?
Will your mother ever need to qualify for Medicaid? Do YOU get any money from your mother? Or are you the one doing all of the caregiving work while your mother is giving away money to her Golden Boy?
If your mother is competent, and still wants to give your brother these substantial assets, I'm not sure what magical powers you expect DPOA to give you. Are you quite certain you want to get involved?
How do you come to have the deed to her townhouse in your possession, if you don't mind my asking?
By proceeding, I agree that I understand the following disclosures:
I. How We Work in Washington.
Based on your preferences, we provide you with information about one or more of our contracted senior living providers ("Participating Communities") and provide your Senior Living Care Information to Participating Communities. The Participating Communities may contact you directly regarding their services.
APFM does not endorse or recommend any provider. It is your sole responsibility to select the appropriate care for yourself or your loved one. We work with both you and the Participating Communities in your search. We do not permit our Advisors to have an ownership interest in Participating Communities.
II. How We Are Paid.
We do not charge you any fee – we are paid by the Participating Communities. Some Participating Communities pay us a percentage of the first month's standard rate for the rent and care services you select. We invoice these fees after the senior moves in.
III. When We Tour.
APFM tours certain Participating Communities in Washington (typically more in metropolitan areas than in rural areas.) During the 12 month period prior to December 31, 2017, we toured 86.2% of Participating Communities with capacity for 20 or more residents.
IV. No Obligation or Commitment.
You have no obligation to use or to continue to use our services. Because you pay no fee to us, you will never need to ask for a refund.
V. Complaints.
Please contact our Family Feedback Line at (866) 584-7340 or ConsumerFeedback@aplaceformom.com to report any complaint. Consumers have many avenues to address a dispute with any referral service company, including the right to file a complaint with the Attorney General's office at: Consumer Protection Division, 800 5th Avenue, Ste. 2000, Seattle, 98104 or 800-551-4636.
VI. No Waiver of Your Rights.
APFM does not (and may not) require or even ask consumers seeking senior housing or care services in Washington State to sign waivers of liability for losses of personal property or injury or to sign waivers of any rights established under law.
I agree that:
A.
I authorize A Place For Mom ("APFM") to collect certain personal and contact detail information, as well as relevant health care information about me or from me about the senior family member or relative I am assisting ("Senior Living Care Information").
B.
APFM may provide information to me electronically. My electronic signature on agreements and documents has the same effect as if I signed them in ink.
C.
APFM may send all communications to me electronically via e-mail or by access to an APFM web site.
D.
If I want a paper copy, I can print a copy of the Disclosures or download the Disclosures for my records.
E.
This E-Sign Acknowledgement and Authorization applies to these Disclosures and all future Disclosures related to APFM's services, unless I revoke my authorization. You may revoke this authorization in writing at any time (except where we have already disclosed information before receiving your revocation.) This authorization will expire after one year.
F.
You consent to APFM's reaching out to you using a phone system than can auto-dial numbers (we miss rotary phones, too!), but this consent is not required to use our service.
"I said to her that I loved her and my house was open to her and I would take care of her when she was broke and sick if need be, but I did not want to be involved anymore with financial planning because it was too stressful and it seemed to me I was going to be left holding the bag after my brother ran through all of her money anyway, so there was no point in providing window dressing for what was essentially a process that I was not a part of. This was not an attempt to gain more control of the finances, I just wanted out of the mess,"
As a psychologist, you should know how to report abuse!
Why not do what you said you wanted to do? Refuse to be involved in financial planning? If you insist that she is fully competent, then she has decided to give all of her assets to your brother.
(If it were me, I would not take her in or take care of her at any point. That job should go to the brother who is getting all of the assets!)
Moreover, resident with her son, DIL and granddaughter, she is highly dependent on their goodwill towards her - emotionally at least, arguably physically and mentally as well.
What they have done is systematically strip her of enormous sums of money. No doubt they have come to see this as compensation for the "imposition" of maintaining her within the household; but however understandable the germ of it, what has developed is quite extreme financial abuse. The shunning, the exclusion at certain times: these are also, surely, emotionally abusive at best.
You must get your mother out of there. Find a way, it is not beyond the wit of man. Locate a facility near you and move her in. She's competent, you don't need anyone's permission. And, of course, since he is blameless - h'm - your brother will be welcome to visit her there. She doesn't want to be a burden to him. Or come between him and his wife.
Come on! - I'm sure a psychologist can summon up plenty of sound arguments that will persuade her to leave?
I'm surprised that your brother in law is so sanguine about what has already taken place. I assume he is not a specialist in elder care or estate planning? But perhaps he has a colleague who is. I should ask him, if I were you, and consult that person as soon as possible. Meanwhile, you work for the county. Don't you ever talk to APS?
What precipitated this change in her mind was that she went to live with my brother and his wife. She's given them large sums of money in the past, but since she went to live with them three months ago, she's given he and his wife most of her cash assets, about $300,000, and promised them the remaining cash, another hundred thousand dollars. My brother has also asked her for the deed to the townhouse she owns.
Presently, she gives him $2000 a month rent from the townhouse, and also pays tax on that income and the homeowners association fees, which he will not pay. The situation in other words is abusive and unfair. My mother has always been reluctant to reign in my brother’s excessive spending, or insist that he be put on a budget. He is underemployed, and just lost his job, and has a lifestyle that exceeds his income with luxury cars and a house in a neighborhood he can't afford.
My mother hid these gifts of cash to my brother from me; she has hidden most of the financial planning decisions concerning him, and the truth came out last week. I am supposed to share financial planning responsibility with my brother. At my mother's request we are co-executors on her trust. When she admitted giving him these assets, I said that I didn't want to be involved with the financial planning anymore. I said to her that I loved her and my house was open to her and I would take care of her when she was broke and sick if need be, but I did not want to be involved anymore with financial planning because it was too stressful and it seemed to me I was going to be left holding the bag after my brother ran through all of her money anyway, so there was no point in providing window dressing for what was essentially a process that I was not a part of. This was not an attempt to gain more control of the finances, I just wanted out of the mess, but at that point, my mother suggested I act as sole executor and also suggested the DPOA.
Everything I've read on the Internet indicates that the DPOA is useful when a person is not competent, but I'm not sure how it applies in this instance. My mother is 88, but fully competent to control her money, and if she wants to give my brother the deed to her townhouse and give him her remaining assets, I'm not sure how durable powers of attorney will help. I don't have the deed to her townhouse in my possession, the deed belongs to her alone.
My brother-in-law, who is a lawyer, seemed to think that durable powers of attorney would help. My brother-in-law says that sales of large assets will need to go through the agent (myself) and that it would be of help to act as a bottleneck for future giveaways.
So that's the situation. I appreciate the interest, and while I’m new to it to the forum, it’s see that it has a very supportive community of contributors. Thank you,
Tom
PS in answer to your question I do not get any money from my mother, I have not gotten money from her since I was in school 30 years ago. I don't know if she will ever need to qualify for Medicaid. It's one of those things I need to learn about. I work as a psychologist for Los Angeles County.
In answer to the question of what my brother provides, he provides a roof over my mother's head, but she lives like Cinderella among evil stepsisters. Her daughter in law and grand daughter don't talk to her, and have asked her to spend her weekends elsewhere as it is their time to spend together as a family. She has trouble walking and driving, and has no place to go (I work weekends) and appears depressed. She blames her daughter-in-law and granddaughter, but not my brother for this situation.
Unfortunately elders do not understand the cost factor as they age, and if they need a higher level of care. They assume their children will take care of them. So many quit their job thinking this would be short-term and 5 yeas later find themselves with a very low balance in their own retirement fund or nothing at all.
If brother wants to change the Deed to his name, then he would be in for Capital Gain taxes which goes all the way back to when Mom had bought the house., whenever brother wants to sell the townhouse. He probably didn't know about that
Will your mother ever need to qualify for Medicaid? Do YOU get any money from your mother? Or are you the one doing all of the caregiving work while your mother is giving away money to her Golden Boy?
How do you come to have the deed to her townhouse in your possession, if you don't mind my asking?