My mother, who is in a nursing home, is accusing me of stealing, and is threatening to revoke my power of attorney. Can she have it revoked?

A child does not need POA or even a joint bank account to handle bills.

All you need is signing privileges or "authorized signer" to sign the checks to pay bills, with her permission.

You only need POA if she has truly been deemed incompetent by a court.

disgusted, I think we lost the OP but I meant it when I said that the POA would terminate upon the declaration of incapacity UNLESS it is specifically drawn up as a Durable POA that survives this declaration. Perhaps I didn't make this clear. It all depends on the POA! DH & I had POA for each other (financial, not limited much) which defined what had to be done to have one of us declared incapacitated (two doctors and spouse) and then it became DPOA. So since OP referred to her POA as just a POA I assumed it was not a durable POA. I think you may also be referring to a "springing" POA which if I understand it correctly ONLY goes into effect upon the declaration of incapacity as defined by the document. Hopefully our windy explanations will help somebody else even if OP never comes back to the thread...

superstring - yes indeed you pointed out something that was not considered in the responses - if her mother has not been deemed incompetent, most likely the POA is not "active." OP said no, she is still considered competent. So, unless the document states otherwise, it would not take effect yet, however OP is NOT doing something nefarious, at least not that we are aware of. Her mother is just assuming (likely has some dementia going on, although not declared) she is stealing and threatening to revoke the POA. This seems to happen a lot in postings I have read. I currently handle all the financials and other paperwork (basically everything except the hands-on care) and penny pinch it just like I do my own! One brother has several times told me to take some from the trust for what I do and my response is a resounding NO. A) we need to preserve as much of the trust as possible, B) there is no arrangement either within the DPOA or set up outside of it to provide payment to any of us and C) if she outlives the trust and must go to Medicaid, THAT would be a problem!

However, it does depend on several things: is it strictly a POA or is it a DPOA? They are very different in nature. POA tends to be a temporary and likely very limited in power. Generally it has nothing to do with competence, but can take effect if someone is temporarily incapacitated, such as during surgery. I used one to allow the attorney to sign for me at closing for a house sale (it would have been probably a two hour drive for me to sign a few pieces of paper, not something I was keen on doing!) DPOA is for taking over financial and other duties when a person is deemed incompetent. While we did not have actual paperwork from anyone deeming our mother incompetent, we had to step in and take over as she was NOT capable of handling her finances anymore. Getting bills transferred did not require using the DPOA, as they do not care where bills are sent so long as someone pays. Banking, I brought the document and mother along - no one questioned it. I'm sure they could see the issue, as she was already in a mode where she would just rifle through her wallet and purse, oblivious to what we were doing. Federal entities do not honor ANY POA - each has their own paperwork and supporting documents to file (SS, federal pensions, VA, IRS.) I would hazard a guess that OP has DPOA and is not abusing it, but rather using it to facilitate handling mom's affairs.

Perhaps what you wrote has a typo when you stated "if she becomes incapacitated, the POA terminates." It is precisely (unless otherwise stated in the document - it can be drawn up in such a way that it could take effect at other times) when the person is incapacitated that a DPOA generally becomes "effective." It only terminates at death or when officially revoked.

If indeed mom pushed via the nursing home to get this revoked, they could process it for her. From the sounds of it, mom just complains to OP and likely will not follow through. If she does, OP can pursue the guardianship and conservatorship route via the courts, but that is time consuming, expensive, and if mom is not deemed incompetent, the courts will assign an attorney for her (more expense!) which could extend how long it takes, cost way more money and in the end get denied or have someone outside the family take over (to the person who wrote about this, there was another thread which pointed to the news articles about the abuse in THAT system, taking assets and family away!)

So long as no one files any paperwork on her behalf to get this revoked, OP should be fine. Again, I would suspect mom has dementia already (the confusion over finances is one of the early signs we had, among other concerns.) If at all possible, find out if there is any way to determine if mom does indeed have dementia, and if so, get it documented. THAT would end the discussion!

Forgive me, but I don't see that anyone has pointed out the following: If you have POA, by definition she has not yet been declared incapacitated, because if she becomes incapacitated, the POA terminates. And she can certainly revoke it while she still has capacity, and appoint whomever she likes as POA as long as they consent. And the facility she is in would be guilty of abuse if they tried to keep her from doing it. However, if you have DURABLE POA, the document will define what has to be done to declare her incapacitated, and unless she revokes it BEFORE this declaration occurs, your power of attorney will remain in effect during the period of incapacity. Bear in mind that a POA, or DPOA, is required to act in the interest of the person who has granted the POA.

In the US the nursing homes and assisted living facilities have ombudsman that will be able to take a complaint from a resident who believes that they are the victim of financial fraud.

As for the person who mentioned a slimy lawyer taking all the money, if the person was in a nursing home, or private care, it's possibly all the money was legitimately spent.

There is currently legislation in the US to ensure that all POAs have to provide a monthly accounting to someone. This would prevent greedy children or slimy lawyers for having free reign over the account with no oversight.

I have POA for an elderly friend because her children fight. With computers it is very easy to keep good records and provide a monthly accounting to her and all her children.

It is very easy, and should be done, to prevent any complaints from anyone. I pay myself for nothing. She was and elderly lady who was like a mother to me.

Many POAs do defraud elders by convincing themselves that they deserve to be paid for certain things.

For example, they will use cabs for private use, but claim they were visiting the patient of banking etc. They will buy personal over-the-counter drugstore items to use for themselves but claim it is for the elder.

Sometimes, the POA is living in the elders home and use the elders money to pay gas and electric even though they have no living expenses, still the POA may fraudulently charge for everything and anything they do that pertains to the elder, in any minor way.

These little charges can really add up.

If all is not accounted for properly, they may have to pay it back after the elder dies, or sometimes before.

If you have not been appointed as POA, you are still considered the elders personal representative, if you sign for everything.

As a personal representative, you will still have to provide an accounting if a court asks.

The court can ask before or after the person dies.

If fraud is apparent, after a thorough review, in rare cases, in some states, charges can be filed. But typically you will be ordered to pay back any misappropriated funds to the bank accounts or to the estate

Really good advice in this thread. I like moecam's "giver" strategy as well as providing straightforward monthly statements. I've tried both with varied results.

With my dad, he was never happy with the format I used for the statement. We would have a conference call that included my sister. My sister didn't exactly back me up by telling my dad that what I had developed was fine. I got frustrated and gave it to her to take over, and my dad was suddenly fine. That was several years ago, and now she does not go over things with him or me. He doesn't worry about it at all.

Now my uncle...he tried to have me arrested last visit for driving his car! He was in a rehab unit and told the social worker he wanted to "file a case" against me for driving his car and a litany of other things. Anyone talking with him could plainly see that he was very confused, not to mention extremely paranoid. When I told him I could not meet the carpet cleaners at his house if he did not let me use his car to get there, he relented and said it was OK. Now a month later he sees the carpet cleaning charge on his credit card bill, I guess forgetting that I had given him the receipt directly. He thinks maybe I never got it done and took the money. So he is "investigating" that now.

With him I'm now just letting him ramble about all of the ways I've done him wrong. I try to document everything and make sure all of the professionals I encounter see that I am doing what is best for him. I have even asked him to sign a few memos of acknowledgment, like that he had his wallet and car keys in his possession. His lawyer has basically told him to suck it up, and that the POA issue was resolved as far as he (the lawyer) is concerned.

Also, they did test him for competence, which he passed. It seems like proving incompetence is a pretty hard thing to do.

MountainMoose: Your idea is genius! I have nothing to offer that could top that!

If she is incompetent then nothing can be changed - get whatever documents you need to support that she is incompetent - advise her lawyer about it -

FYI ... they all say this - if they can't find something [that they may have hidden & forgets about] then it is 'stolen' because they can never admit they are the problem - this too will pass

My mom did this with me because she felt I was taking things away from her & I was to protect her but all her $$ is accounted for - then I started bringing things to her ... sometimes a plant, a coffee from Timmy's with some Timbits, a card, even a sweater that I repaired ... just anything - then she started to see me as a 'giver' so then I couldn't be a 'taker' so she is happy with me now - it will take time & finding something to give can be hard at times but when I find something that has many parts then I bring it in pieces - JUST HAVE SOMETHING IN YOUR HANDS EACH TIME YOU VISIT - you both will be happier

As durable POA for a friend of mine, I used the simple technique of making sure all money coming in goes directly to his bank account. All money going out is by check in response to a bill. There are no children or close relatives to account to, but I am behaving as though I do. The bank statements clearly show the deposits and print outs of the checks. I make sure nothing comes to me, not even gas mileage money. I don't need it and don't want to muddy the waters about money coming to me. I am also executor of his estate and know what his intent is should there be any money left in it. He is healthy at almost 92, just can't remember things. He does say he expects to live to 100 and he just might do that and that I just have to stay healthy, too, so I can continue taking care of things. I always respond that I am trying to do that, and I am. We've been friends for a long time, so I value the time we have together when I visit him every week, or take him to a dental appointment or something. It's something we get to do together. I am so grateful that I found a memory care apartment in an assisted living facility that really takes good care of their clients. A doctor visits him regularly, the head nurse knows what is going on and gives me good advice and answers to any questions I raise. Not having to worry about his care makes this extra work pretty easy. And at 75, I appreciate that.

If your mother has not been deemed mentally incompetent, the answer would be yes, she *could* do this. However, just stating it is not enough. She would have to do this formally, in writing, more than likely through an attorney.

Being that she is in a nursing home, what access would she have to writing something up (and would she even know how?) and have it notarized and officially done? Are there other family members goading her on, with the intent to take over? Are you the one and only? Even if not incompetent, she clearly cannot manage her finances and needs oversight, hence the POA need (the only other alternative is conservatorship, an expensive and time consuming prospect - avoid this if possible!)

When visiting, try to avoid financial discussions. Maybe to satisfy her, close the credit accounts and let her keep her cards (they will not be of use to anyone, especially once the expiration date passes.) If she really needs to know, keeping documents as others suggested and showing her this comes in, these go out, here is the result, maybe can satisfy her. However if she continues to be convinced you are stealing, there is not a whole lot that can be done - I would certainly suspect she is part way down the dementia road. While our mother was still living alone I had to take over the financial tasks because she was getting confused and making too many errors. Other than being angry that I temporarily forwarded her mail to snag the bills and have them directed to me, she really never complained about "missing" them... I did miss a few items as they were not monthly, so we had a little rough spot when she tried to order new checks because the homeowner's insurance came in - those were sent to me.
A second attempt was made and she was told I get the statements and checks. She never said a word. Not too long after that I had to have a brother get her out of the condo so I could "sweep" the place for bills and other paperwork, because she started digging out old stuff and thinking her 1099 pension statements were notification that someone died and left her money! Yes mom, dad passed away and YOU get death benefits... Oh he died years ago... Augh! It was just easier to get rid of all the papers stashed in various places. Once gone, she mostly forgot about them. Once or twice she remembered vaguely that there was something but couldn't find it. I ignored the comments and moved the conversation to something else.

So, again, YES, if she is not deemed incompetent, she can indeed revoke and/or appoint someone else, BUT is there really any way for her to accomplish this? On the surface, based on what you describe, I don't see how she could manage to do this legally. Avoiding financial discussions or attempting to change the subject are about all you can do when she starts this behavior. Hopefully you can work things out!

robinr: I get it about the time and energy involved manage our loved one's affairs. Another perspective is to also protect yourself as POA. When Mom's lawyer got my sisters spun up about the possibility of elder abuse and misappropriation of Mom's money (and this happened two days after Mom passed--it's own circle of Hell), those statements I developed saved me. I wouldn't have remembered why I transferred $1,000 at one point to an account that rings a bell or other perfectly appropriate transfers that drew his attention.

POAs have a lot of power, and with that power comes the possibility for some to do wrong. For those of us who would never do wrong we also know non-caregivers are quick to glom on wrong-doing, even if it's made up. We have to protect ourselves and ensure we can defend what we've done.

It was daunting to develop that statement, but once all Mom's bills were on auto-deduct and the monthly statement set up so it was easy to do with its built-in reminders, it took little time at all.

Final note: Mom did NOT like it when I took over her finances and stopped all statements to her. It scared her. After several months, even with her dementia, it sank in that her finances were being taken care of. In her final year, I occasionally asked her if she wanted to review them. She even turned down looking at the statements as she knew everything was cared for!

I understand the frustration and thanklessness involved, but I still much prefer MountainMoose's reassurance strategy :)

Kingsbridge: PM heading your way.

For my statement to Mom, all that information would likely fit on one page, but I wanted lots of white space in order to help her comprehend. The first page could reasonably be deleted as it was on the checkbook register, but who wants to comb through a checkbook register if you want to know when the property tax was paid? Hence, the first page was the down-and-dirties of her bills. The ending balances were carried forward to the beginning balances of the next month so Sisters (and Lawyer) could see no money could be missing.

I also liked that she had something to hold onto, like a "real", professional statement. Additionally, with her dementia, she could check it as often as she wanted to, feel relieved all was well, then set it aside until next time she was anxious.

I never wanted POA and thankfully, against the wishes of family, my father never wanted to name me (or anyone else) POA.

Nothing would have changed as I was already managing his finances as well as helping with medicines and appointments. He apologized that he didn't want to name anyone as POA and I told him, I never asked him to.

We managed fine for the 7.5 years he survived my mother - in our family it was Mom who managed the finances.

If any of my siblings had pushed to get POA, I would have gladly stepped aside and let them do it all. I guess no one wanted it bad enough to do the dirty work too :)

Like GardenArtist, my name was on all the accounts at the recommendation of the Bank Vice-President. All my dad asked me was, "will you still honor my wishes and divide equally with your sisters after I'm gone?" That was a no-brainer and I said yes. From that day on, my name was included on all accounts.

The reasoning the Bank VP gave him, if push ever came to shove, I wouldn't have to go to court to free his assets to take care of him. So, no POA was ever needed.

Moose, excellent approach (not to mention that I did the same thing!). You're more thorough than I was; I like your methods.

I found that telling Dad every time I paid a bill, keeping him updated on financial issues, etc. allowed him to be comfortable that the issues were being handled. Since his checking account was joint, I actually never acted with proxy authority for that aspect of his care.

Mountainmoose- what a great idea....are you able to share your spreadsheet you developed?

I agree with others upthread with their responses. Here's a different approach: do you proactively inform her of what's happening with all her finances?

Five years ago when Mom couldn't handle her finances anymore and the "final notices" started to appear, and my then-live-in-caregiver sister couldn't handle the added stress (she works long hard hours as a funeral director), and Mom's granddaughter hounded Gramma for money (and ended up with all of it), I told Sisters that I would handle Mom's money. I live out of state, but with auto-deduction online I could take care of Mom's finances. Eventually they got Mom through her lawyer to sign POA to me for finances and medical (to handle her medical bills) while they took care of Mom's person and her house.

Because Mom's dementia caused her to toss whole bank statements and bills in the trash, I developed a monthly "statement" of anything to do with Mom's money--sanitized so if she threw it in the trash a finder of those papers had no idea of bank, account numbers, identity, etc.

The first page had a list of utilities and when they were paid, amount, and when; her property tax and when it was paid through; her homeowner's insurance and when it was paid through (when I took over Mom fixated on her insurance and property tax so they became permanent items on the statement). The second page was a recreation of her checkbook register; the third page was any loans such as Granddaughter who owed Mom money (no way was Granddaughter not paying back money), Mom's Home Equity Line of Credit (usually balance zero), et al.

I mailed it to Mom by the second of every month. Mom could review it and reassure herself that all was well, and my sisters could review too. Any questionable or odd things were explained on those entries so there were no questions. [Note: those explanations came in handy after Mom passed away a few weeks ago when Sisters basically accused me of elder abuse and theft because they and Mom's lawyer only looked at the printout of Mom's checking account that had no explanations. When Sister 2 asked me specific questions what Lawyer pointed out and I could point out the explanations and show the receipts those accusations vanished.]

Anyway, is it possible that a statement such as this every month (along with a printout of any bank statements to confirm) might help your Mom relax?

We never had POA with my mother and I was her only family. We always had verbal agreements that each of us promised to honor. I took care of all her paperwork and finances for almost 30 years because after my father passed away, my Italian born mother did not know how to do those things because my father did them for her while he was alive. Then dementia set in and along with it came the paranoia and the mistrustfulness. I never took a penny from her because my family did not need the money. Everything went downhill from there and when I tried to seek guardianship, as suggested by the nursing home, they in turn introduced her to a local slimy lawyer who basically fought us in court and won and stole her money and even her jewelry. My mother died alone and completely isolated from her family years later. We lost over $100k of our own money trying to obtain guardianship and then starting an appeal. Even the judge was corrupt it turns out. I hope you can get this resolved before it spins out of control like it did for us and almost destroyed my own immediate family. Good luck and stay strong !!

chooey, this must be so stressful and I’m sorry. All good advice above. My mother hasn’t given me POA yet, she’s always been generally distrustful because of her childhood trauma. When and if we get there I think she will cry out to revoke it at least weekly... thus I don’t push it. Their feelings of insecurity can get pervasive, hope you’re not taking it too personally. It’s very sad. You’re doing the best you can for her, hang in there. 💐

If in a nursing home she can no longer able to care for herself. Leaving her bills unpaid and confused about her finances...is Dementia and the NH can evaluate this. Sounds like this is permanent. I would have this done. Once she is evaluated incompetent she will not be able to revoke the POA.

If this is a new behavior and it started suddenly, please have her checked for a urinary tract infection!

If she's competent to revoke a POA, she could do so. But that would require her physically revoking it (or having a new POA drafted that specifically revokes older POAs) and serving it upon you and any creditors that might have it. Are there other people involved that would help her revoke the former POA by bringing in a new POA and a notary for her to execute?