My Mom needs a guardian. What are the pros and cons of a state-appointed guardian?

My experience with guardianships is limited to what I observed while working for an elder law attorney who handled them. I admit that it's prejudiced me against appointed guardians.

A neutral third party will be costly. What I saw was that attorneys are appointed, take control and bill at an attorney's rate. That would be appropriate if the client were a corporate or high net worth client.

In one instance, the guardian blocked a long time neighbor friend from access to the client (the elderly woman). Based on what I read, it seemed this was a friendly neighbor who had been checking on the woman, bringing her food, etc. I read nothing to indicate that this neighbor was a predator or of bad repute. Yet she was denied access.

If the guardian is given access to your mother's funds to pay bills, expect that to be done for a fee as well. Nothing is going to be free, and the costs grow quite quickly. Attorneys bill for everything they do. That's standard in law when the rates are hourly plus charges incurred.

It doesn't sound though as if it would be a good move for you. I think a big question would be whether or not the social worker and others with whom you've spoken intend to keep her in her home or place her in a facility, and if your mother has the funds for that. If not, it would I think be the guardian's responsibility to file for Medicaid and address those issues, which might be easier for an attorney guardian to handle than for you, given your mother's lack of cooperation.

And that's another issue if you are appointed - how will you be able to get her to cooperate so that you can carry out your responsibilities?

Unfortunately, it's kind of a "six of one, half a dozen of the other" situation - there are pros and cons to both.

Back off. Let the state appoint a guardian. It's time for her to be managed with dispassion. It's one thing to step in and help someone who wants your help. Another thing entirely when your help is neither wanted nor appreciated. Just don't expect any money to be left in her estate. Guardians have only one goal in mind -- in this case, taking care of your mom.

Thanks. In case of finances, my mom doesn't have a huge estate. I honestly don't know if a state-appointed guardian means fees for me in any way, or if they'll just take from her estate or most of her pension. I believe if she were on Medicaid once funds ran out, she'd just get a small allowance of maybe $20 or $40 in an assisted living or nursing facility, since meals, medications, etc., would be covered.

She tried to sell her house some years back and couldn't because in part she priced it way too high and then got mad that the realtor wasn't bringing people in. (Hey, when the house down the street can be had for $30,000 less ...) That situation was a disaster from the start. She slept with a gun or meat cleaver under her pillow in the basement because she thought people were going to break in. There was no bathroom in the basement, so she'd soil herself going up and down the steps to pee or poop. She thought neighbors were spying on her there. (And the doctor did nothing... and I think there was a clear difference here between eccentric and insane.)

I couldn't help her sell it either because she didn't want to price it reasonably, wouldn't cooperate enough to let us try and arrange a short sale, etc., so the house was lost. (Which at her age, the credit rating doesn't matter so much anyways.) She has never wanted my help except to drive her to the store or doctor. Mainly I'm expected to be the person she complains to or insults, drives her around, or does errands for her.

But what she has now: She rents an apartment and has her furnishings, a bit of jewelry (as in few sterling silver rings and necklaces and some cocktail jewelry), and some cash stashed in a purse (she takes it out of the bank and "hides" it in her place and then forgets where she puts it, too, only to accuse anyone who looks at her of stealing it.) There's not much for anyone to take. She might have $4,000 in checking and $3,000 hidden in her freezer, and after that, nothing. She never saves for much or long. Usually she'd save and then spend it on a huge vacation, three weeks in Cancun or something.

So in brief, I'm not worried about losing any inheritance. I'm mainly hoping she gets the care she needs -- and any care is good at this point, as far as I'm concerned, since she won't let me do much of anything. And also I really just don't want to fight anymore.

Since she dislikes her entire family it might be up to a stranger to make sure she takes her pills and gets regular meals and there might be progress. She spent three weeks in assisted living last year after a fall and the difference was remarkable. She was clearer, brighter, better fed, couldn't stir up the accusations so much, didn't smoke, got the meds she needed as needed, and so on. It was like someone turned back a clock.

Somehow there's a need to be cruel to be kind. But whether it'll be me or someone state-appointed, I still don't know.

Heidi, under the circumstances and considering everything, it might just be bet to let a hired guardian handle everything, and that could include addressing financial assistance for a facility placement. Sounds like you're worn down from the ordeals as well as the "eccentric" (for lack of a better term) behavior, and given her hostility, there's no reason why you should be exposed to more of it.

BTW, is that lavender in your avatar?

Hi Heidi,

We feel for your and your mom's situation and will pray for the best outcome.

We feel that you would make the best guardian and would encourage you to take on this role. We did for our LO, and while it is additional work, it also means that someone who cares is in charge of the decisions.

A guardian, as our attorney described it, is not necessarily a caregiver but a decision maker. If your mom doesn't have a lot of money and doesn't have an existing relationship with an attorney who would fill the role of guardian, you will find that she may get the worst of the worst care rather than the best you could find as her condition worsens.

You can shield yourself from the emotional damage by managing from a distance, so to speak.

We realize this is a difficult decision, but GardenArtist's original post really laid out what we've read in the local newspaper regarding attorneys appointed as guardians. For those with money, it sometimes just plain disappears.

GardenArtist: Yes, that is lavender.

Oddly, as I debate this, my mother just called, and was very hostile.

She basically dredges up things she's angry about -- and she's angry about anythign that doesn't go her way, and holds grudges -- and then flips it on me and essentially calls me a b****.

I may have brought up one or two things some years back, like once many years ago I said I wished she hadn't drank so much when I was a child and teen (she is either an angry drunk or a crying drunk and would drink so much she'd fall and knock over tables and chairs, etc.). She will bring that up 1,000 times, even though I haven't thought of it in years, except to be reminded of it when she mentions it.

She seems to me to be someone very paranoid and angry and delusional and lives in this bubble that's filled with things she's angry about from 20, 30, 40 years ago, and then oddly tells me I dwell on the negatives or refuse to remember good times, even though she's the one constantly complaining about how her sister didn't repay a $500 loan in 1972, or things like that.

I think she hates that I haven't given my life up to her, to do as she wants. I didn't get a degree in nursing like she wanted me to, so I'm a disappointment. I don't color my hair blonde like she does, so this is somehow a rejection of her, even though I have more my father's coloring than hers. Also an insult is that I actually choose to spend time my husband over her most of the time. That I don't travel a lot, this means I'm dull and unadventurous. And I get to hear this over and over.

And I could do more for her, yes, but I tend to keep contact brief because I see no sense in arguing with someone who is always angry, or imagines things, or can't hear or remember things.

So I have a lot to ponder about the guardianship. I see pros and cons to both.

But if I had control of her bills and whatnot, and if she stayed in her apartment, how do I get her to cooperate on other things? How do I make sure she takes her pills on time? She'll be angry with what I buy for her. She'll be angry if I make a doctor's appointment at 10 a.m. instead of 2 p.m. for her. She'll think I stole a pen or paper towels for her if I stop in for a visit. She can't live with us, either. I work at home and she would just sit around with the TV on at top volume and chain smoking and complaining. That would drive me insane. It would drive my husband insane, too.

You have heard the cons. The pros are that YOU are protected from further emotional abuse, that you are NOT responsible for her bills or her aggression. Let the state take over, money be dammed.

One of my close friends put her two cents in for state guardianship. Even the social worker was like, don't feel bad if you can't or don't want to do it. It's not like she's being locked away never to be seen again. I won't decide today, anyways. Next week she'll be served with the papers and we'll go from there.
I predict she will think it's some huge conspiracy and she'll threaten to commit suicide or she'll say she's moving out of the country.

I would check online for a brochure that explains the Guardianship process in your state. I know NC has one. One factor to consider is that you may have to be bonded to serve as guardian. If you have credit issues, that can be an obstacle. Also, most states require that the fees be approved by the court and that they not exceed a certain percentage of the receipts and expenditures. In NC, it's 5%.

Also, you have to file inventory and annual accoutings with the clerk of court. You have to be very meticulous in everything you spend, keep receipts, follow the rules, and balance the guardian estate account to the penny, etc. I have seen people who do it and it's highly stressful.

I am POA for a dementia patient and it's very time consuming and always on your mind. I would not wish it on someone, especially if the subject is resisting. Only you can make the decision though. You might ask if you try it and it doesn't work out, can you then return to court and ask that the court appoint someone else.

Sunnygirl1:

That is what I'm afraid of, aside from the fight I'm getting from my mother. I have a stressful job where I already have a lot to keep track of with deadlines and invoicing, odd hours, and I have to work ahead for time off, so it would just add extra hours to a day.
And if relations were good, it would be one thing, but my mother hates her whole family.

I just got a card from her and in it she wrote she wished I'd been orphaned (instead of only my dad dying when I was 15) so I would have had to go to an orphanage and then the state would have taken my inheritance. It makes no sense. She also keeps telling me I made the right choice not to have children because children only disappoint you. (Thanks!)

These are the ramblings of a very unhappy person with mental illness and dementia. I am inclined to let the state choose a guardian and maybe this could be a bit of starting from scratch.

It bothers me, though, because I do believe in looking out for family, even though mine is torn apart. But my husband's side, his parents are old and slowing down, with health issues popping up more and more, but everybody chips in to help, either by making a family gathering into a potluck or carving out a few hours on a weekend to do yard work. But his parents appreciate it. There's no anger, hate, drama, accusations, etc. It's just helping mom and dad, and we're happy to do it, and they're happy to get the help.

Heidi, as you're realizing, dementia and mental illness are game changers. I don't see any way for you to be your mom's guardian without it destroying your soul. You will second guess every decision you make because on some level, you have to be trying to get some validation or love out of her.

Did the county social worker say anything about a determination of whether or not your mom could remain in her home? It sounds as if it is very likely that your mom will be found incompetent, which is why she'd need a guardian, and that ruling might make it difficult for her to remain in her home without 24/7 supervision. If she lives alone, she will either have to pay for in home care set up by the guardian or potentially be removed from her home under the direction of her guardian and placed into a nursing home - if the county doesn't decide she's in danger by herself and take some sort of action. We hate to suggest this, but it sounds as if it is too much work to care for your mom at home, especially since she's so difficult. It's hard to see any non-family member guardian agreeing to her staying there without a significant source of funds to pay for 24/7 in home care and the rationalization of the accounting required for the annual reports to the county. She will likely be found to have significant mental deficiencies requiring 24/7 care and the place that's more often done, especially under Medicaid assuming that's at some point necessary in her case, is a NH. Medicaid doesn't pay enough to provide 24/7 care in home.

Fortunately for you, the county is driving the guardianship proceeding, not you. Suddenly, your mom will have doctor visits to establish her mental competency. A strange attorney will likely contact her as her appointed advocate and do his or her own evaluation. All this may seem scary to her. That gives you an angle to come in as a hero as well as blame them for what's happening to her as a means of leverage.

We hated to do this with our LO, but in our case there was outright violence, not just drama, crazy accusations, etc. We were there providing care, and got kicked out. With a dementia patient who could bare find and pour a glass of milk without care for the night, we called 911. The response was amazing. Two police cars and an ambulance were there in minutes. The first responders knew right what to do -- quite frankly, they were better than most of the LPNs and aids at the NH. Our LO was taken to the hospital and has not come home since. After a hospital stay to try to manage the violent behavior, on to rehab for 100 on Medicare and we're working on permanent placement. After our LO was out of the house was the point we sought and obtained guardianship. At that point, accounting is very easy seeing as everything either went to the shut down of the house, spend down on our LO's behalf, or the NH. Now it all goes to the NH.

It would be a different story if we were providing guardianship oversight while trying to manage care ourselves in our LO's house or our own home. But, like you, it is impossible to have our LO with us.

Now is the time to become her guardian if you want it. It will cost you money to obtain guardianship if you do not have control of your mother's accounts and can spend them toward guardianship and having yourself named. But it will probably cost less now than later. With the government filing the complaint, you will have to answer to the court, through either your own or her appointed attorney, what your feelings are toward being a guardian. We were told we'd need a lawyer if this scenario played out in which the county initiated the proceedings in order to pursue guardianship, but much of the filing is done by others so it might be lower cost. If you decide against it and get second thoughts later, and decide to try to seek to be named guardian instead of whomever is first named by the courts, you will likely have to overcome any argument you made for not being named in the first place and you'll bear probably all of the cost. Or, this might be the better option for you considering your mom's behaviors....let the county take the heat and you come in as the rescuer..."but Mom, there's no place for you to go but here. They just won't let me take you out of this NH. So sorry, I don't like it either..."

So, if the county will be the bad guy and get your mom into care somewhere, it certainly gives you the option to take on the responsibility of providing loving guardianship without having to provide care or even deal with her often if it comes to that.

Remember, guardians make decisions and manage care but don't have to provide the care themselves.

Again, we'll pray for the right decision and best outcome.

Sunnygirl1 'hit the nail on the head' in the second paragraph (pp2) and the first two (2) sentence in pp3.

Having three(3) of my four(4) siblings still 'alive', it was -more or less- a democratic decision- that as the eldest it was MY responsibility to handle all aspects of Mother's affairs. It is no picnic taking on that type of responsibility. What makes it more difficult in my situation is dealing 'long-distance'. Being the closest at two hundred & eighty-seven (287) miles from the place of Mother's current residency. Deal with the assisted living (AL), SSA and a variety of other assets is truly time consuming and at time stressful. If it were to happen this day I would leave it to someone else.

LifeRyder, are you using a Mac? I've been trying to find the portions you referenced but I see 1 full page and a partial second page, no p. 3.

Heidi73: Sleeping with a gun and a meat cleaver IS NOT AT ALL NORMAL BEHAVIOR. Sounds like she needs to be in psych ward.

I wouldn't dispute that Heidi's mom has some problems, but I would say generally that sometimes situations exist in which people need to be defensive about their security. Perhaps Heidi's mom really felt threatened.

After my house was burglarized, I started to keep weapons by my bedside, and still do. Same with other members of my family; we've all been burglarized.

I wouldn't keep a meat cleaver though; it requires being up close and personal with an attacker. There are other weapons better suited for protection.

GardenArtist: A woman that is this ill should, in no way, have weapons by her! No, no, no!

The paranoia sounds like dementia behaviors. It certainly depends, and while we're not doctors, the woman we knew in this kind of nightly fear quickly wound up in a NH after her POA and other family were informed. For our friend, it seemed like a version of sundowners. She was much more clear during the day when her caregivers were around, but when left alone at night, things got dicey.

Agree with Llamalover. In our experience, we've seen very aggressive behaviors that include kicking, fighting, biting, hitting, hitting with canes, and throwing objects. Given a more dangerous weapon at the wrong moment, our LO could have committed one or more homicides.

So, a guardian is just one step your mom probably needs right now, Heidi. She probably doesn't need a pysch ward if it's dementia behavior (we tried that ourselves with our LO, hospital wouldn't accept). But your mom may need a memory unit at a NH. That's a hard step to take, especially if you're the daughter trying to do the best loving thing by your mom. A state-appointed lawyer won't care as much whether or not the home is a good one in which your mom will receive better care. He or she could decide that any old home that's "qualified" will do. While making the decision to remove your mom from her home is a nightmare by anyone's standards, if your mom is receiving less than adequate care (our LO does not receive good care and we've been fighting hard to fix it without an easy solution), that becomes a living nightmare all its own. You'll have to make the decision about what you can live with. No choice is going to be pain free. After all, this is post-Fall earth...

I found myself in very much the same situation 3 years ago. I suffered horrible emotional abuse throughout my life, much like that wonderful card Heidi received about her mthr wishing she'd been orphaned (also neglect and physical aspects as well). The difference to me was that my mthr had quite a bit in assets, and she was being financially abused by a former co-worker.

I wanted to "do the right thing" and make sure mthr was in a safe place her last years. That would include round the clock supervision to make sure she was not a danger to herself, including suicide which she so frequently threatened to manipulate us. Adult Protective Services explained that all the charges for a guardian would be taken from her accounts, and if she ran out of money, the charges would be paid by the state. I could simply come in and visit at the nursing home as a guest, not a combatant. I would not have any decision making ability, so I would have no guilt in saying, Mthr, I can't take you home, I don't have that power.

In the end, I decided that I could handle her being in a memory home close to me instead of a couple of states away. She had medical issues I wanted to address to give us time so that we could stop and possibly reverse the financial abuse. I took over with a POA and installed mthr in the local Memory Care where she could not escape.

The difference is that mthr was compliant at that time because of her medical condition. It would have been brutal to get her in when she was in her usual state of mind. If she had not had significant assets, I would not have hesitated to hand her over to a guardian.

Even in a bad nursing home, mthr would have been medicated, fed, and kept from harm better than she was doing for herself. And bad homes can be reported. BTW. you might wonder why I write mthr - she is missing something inside, obvious to everyone but herself.

The appointment of the guardian can be changed. & does happen.

Mom is going to be resistant to whomever does whatever. A court appointed guardian will be able to get past this hurdle faster, simpler & with less dramarama.
Think of this as Phase 1 & let the State deal with it. If part of this is getting mom into a facility & on Medicaid, state is going to get action quicker than you could.

The court will have scheduled hearings regarding moms situation, & you make sure you're there as her family to advocate for her & to be there for the guardian to work with and consider a resource & an ally. Then a year or 3 from now, when mom is in a facility with a treatment plan ongoing, then it's Phase 2 in which you petition the court to become her guardian. By that time the judge knows you, the guardian knows you & facility too and all is good to change guardianship to you.

If you have anything amiss credit-wise or that would be a problem to be bonded, this gives you time to get it cleared up too. Good luck. My goodness a cleaver!

Thanks everyone.

I'm still on the fence with my mother. One person suggested I could even opt for guardianship and then ask the state to take it on if it's too much for me.

If I went to court to get guardianship over my mother I think she would take it as a hostile move. Even if I took care of all her expenses, visited her every day and played yahtzee with her, got a nurse to visit her apartment five days a week and had catered food delivered every day and hired a maid, she would still see me as doing something manipulative or cruel, whether the funds came out of my pocket or hers. If it was hers, it'd be overcharged or there'd be fraud, she'd say, and if I paid for it, every decision I'd make would be wrong, from food choices to the nurse who was hired.

Has anyone ever seen the movie or documentary Grey Gardens? I swear that is what my mother would want of me. For me to just give up on my life and live with her and entertain her, etc.

As for sleeping with a meat cleaver under her pillow, yes, extreme. I even mentioned it to her doctor. I mentioned that it's not normal behavior, to my mom, when she knew better.
For some reason she thought people at that house were out to get her.

She'd once had a feud with a neighbor where she made wild accusations (this was a decade ago, at least) saying the woman shot at her house (no evidence of bullet holes), sold drugs (unconfirmed), that she was a prostitute (again, unconfirmed). But it's been a long saga. She'd call the drug hotline on the woman, making up stories about the drugs and prostitution and shootings. The cops actually called the doctor she had at the time and he in turn called me to alert me of her obsession.

When I told her (without outing her doctor's role) she shouldn't be calling in false reports to the police, that it could backfire on her, she was offended by my advice. She also once fell in her yard and cut her hand or her head on a rock, then went inside, bagged the rock with a ziploc or grocery bag and called the police and said the neighbor's boyfriend attacked her in broad daylight. I told my mom that wasn't right, that it could backfire on her to lie like that, and her take was that she had to do this to protect herself. In fact she thought she was clever for being so dramatic.

This is what I've dealt with for many years. It's all to serve her ends. She's lied about illnesses to get attention, pity or charity. Now her old villains have been cast away -- cutting off contact with the rest of the family, and moving and not being in touch with old neighbors, etc -- so my husband and I are now the supreme villain. She may be afraid of us due to mental illness or dementia, and it has to be scary, but it doesn't help us help her.

For that reason I'm leaning toward a state guardian. I can still be in touch with her and help her out and try to do nice things for her, and frankly I do hope they force her into a home, because there, like others have said, she would get the right medication when she needs it and regular food, etc., and more social interaction. No matter how much she says she hates being around people, she does like attention.

I don't care about the money. I'm independent and don't expect an inheritance to tide me over. I always have worked steadily and worked through and around layoffs and past hardships and I will again if I have to. Between money and peace, peace is more valuable, and again, there's nothing much to be inherited from her. I got my big inheritance already from her in terms of many wild, eccentric, humorous and frustrating stories.

Does anyone have any advice on how to explain it to mom once she gets that notice from the state about the guardianship and court date? She may want me to explain it to her, or she may not want to talk to me at all. But if I do have to explain it, should I even mention that I was the one who contacted the state, the doctor, etc.?

NO WAY would I say I was involved. I might read the paperwork and say I didn't fully understand the process. I'm not sure about your state, but in NC, a temporary Guardian is appointed to come out almost immediately and meet with your mom. They find out what mom's wishes are and get an objective opinion of the situation. They also talk to the doctor and family to get the big picture. Sometimes they may side with the person, but normally, they recommend guardianship, if the facts support. Often, it's not a close call. That person should be able to explain the process to your mom.

Oh god, what a day.

I got a call from the social worker yesterday and the court date should be Oct. 7, but they haven't served papers yet. She says my mom will need groceries soon, so I'm going to break from work and grab a few essentials. She'll have food and something to complain about because I always get her the wrong things, even if I get milk or eggs!

I call her, though, and she says, right off the bat, oh, I thought you dumped me. No ... Then she says I accused her of stealing $43,000 from me. I think it's tied to some money I inherited when my dad died, which I spent on some college expenses and just wasted in other ways. That's decades ago, though, so what's the point. I was young and dumb, but I spent it; no one stole it!

I don't know where she came up with the $43,000 number, though, or the stealing, for that matter. I told her this is the first I've heard of it. But she insisted her memory is long and perfect. Um, no... Then she says she doesn't know why I'm so angry. Well, it is troubling to start a phone call with accusations! Obviously she's not understanding things. But I just say can we not bring up past problems for a change. She then insists that she only -- ONLY! -- thinks of happy things and is jolly and doesn't dwell on the past. Then she goes on to bitch about my dad, how her sisters and mom dumped her when they found a man and how I am just like them, how I am waiting for her to die so I get a few bucks in life insurance or something like that. (I'm not, I told her, so she then said, well, my husband is! He can't wait for her to die so he can get his hands on some money.)

She also said she's running low on food, and had the neighbor take her out .... for cigarettes. Well, did she go to Kroger to get cigarettes and maybe some milk and eggs, too? Maybe the party store, where you could pick up a couple subs, maybe some chips or crackers? A bag of nuts? No, she had to go to the tobacco store because their prices are good and the owner is an Arab and I think she likes that because they're both foreign (she's German) so they're allies or some sort.

She also told me she told the social worker, who is seeing about interfaith volunteers helping her with rides or doctor visits, that she told them that they better not have any trouble with taking her to buy cigarettes, because it is her one luxury. Again, it's charity. How can she demand volunteers who want her to get her essentials drive her to the tobacco store? She could afford to hire a driver for $20 an hour and drive her around once a month for five or six hours!

I think the guardian is going to be state appointed. I can't take it anymore! I honestly cannot take it any more. I know a lot of what is happening now can't be helped, but it's stuff that's been building. It's death from a thousand paper cuts!

She's taken control of the situation, puts you on the spot and makes you defend your actions. She's definitely a "button pusher."

One thing you can do is refuse to engage. One tactic is to throw her completely off balance by agreeing with her. Another is to compliment her on her insight, something like that. Then change the subject and keep doing so every time she tries to provoke you, which is exactly what she's doing.

Another tactic is to tell her (when she's insulting you) that you're not going to listen to this nonsense and if she doesn't stop you'll get her food and leave it on her doorstep, and she can take it from there.

As to the interfaith volunteers and others, I would alert them ahead of time so they know they too will have to establish boundaries with her. She'll test them, I think you can count on that.

As to the cigarettes, I think I would tell her that if she wants them, she'll have to make arrangements to get them herself. Even if she's smoked all her adult life, she still should be considering stopping - although she's probably in denial of the dangers but being defiant as well.

And I do think you have a right not to be in the house when it smells of smoke or when she's smoking. Your health is important too.

I stopped by her place to drop off groceries today and mom was pleasant. I suspect all that crabbiness she let out on me made her feel better, though I felt irritated and got a migraine as a result! I honestly sometimes just put the phone on the side and put it on speakerphone at a low volume and just say yes if she asks if I'm still there.

As for cigarettes, that's one thing I refuse to get for her anymore. I tell her if I take her to Kroger she can buy them while she's there. She doesn't like that. Hence asking the neighbor to drive her to the tobacco store.

She's very manipulative in her ways. She often told me you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Oddly she never tries that approach on me.

I guess I "owe" her because she gave birth to me and raised me. She used to tell me, and still does, that she considered having me aborted. So does this mean I should be doubly grateful and eternally indebted to her that she didn't have me vacuumed out of her womb?

I can't believe anyone could be cruel enough to tell a child he or she might have been aborted! That's the height of insensitivity and deliberate cruelty.

If anyone said that to me, I would probably just be able to contain my anger long enough to say something equally cruel, such as it's unfortunate you didn't because then I wouldn't have had to endure such a miserable life you've created. That would shut someone up.

Heidi, I think your mother does have a mean streak.

Heidi, I'm of the firm belief that we don't owe our parents anything. Parenthood was their choice not ours. We owe our children our love and support while they are young. We raise our children to become independent and self supporting human beings who make use of their own talents. We it to owe ourselves to prepare for our futures, including our old age.

I just don't see that the "owing" goes in a backwards direction. And yes, let the state take over Guardianship of your poor mentally ill mom.

Garden artist, I couldn't help but add my two cents. I haven't even read the post you're talking about, but wanted to share this story.

My dad had a debilitating stroke. It changed who he was and removed that social filter we all have. Mom and dad had been divorced 25 years ago or so. I was talking to him on the phone one afternoon, and he said, "Maggie, I'm so proud of you. I'm so glad it was too late to get the abortion we wanted when your mom was pregnant with you."

Gulp. I just said, "Me, too, dad."

I never discussed it with him again. And three people on earth know what he said to me. I never talked to mom about it, and would have been horrified if she somehow found out I knew that. Dad never even realized the import of what he'd said. I was grateful for that.

I loved mom. Mom loved me. She was right up there for the "best mom on earth award." Took me about ten minutes to put that conversation behind me. Never bothered me in the Itsy-bitsyist.